Terms of Use prohibiting reselling of ebooks are legal German Court rules

[mandy314]

A german consumer rights group lost a court case against a digital content (ebooks/downloadable audiobooks) retailer contending Terms of Use (Allgemeine Geschäftsbedingungen) prohibiting the reselling of bought items.

German news site:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldu...n-2304262.html

I'm really not happy with all this "Terms of Use" castration of consumer rights. With all digital content you seem not to buy a product but only a service. Even for digital gadgets you almost give more rights away than you get to use the "damned thing" as you like.
Copying the content is illegal anyway. Circumvention of DRM is prohibited by state's law in most countries. If you sell a copy of your ebook and keep the original OR sell the original and keep a copy OR sell many copies and keep the original OR ... (I think you got what I'm getting at ) you break the law (no Terms of Use needed). So why can't the law-abiding cititzen sell an ebook he bought if he wants to do this? And where is the monetary reimbursement for giving up consumer rights?

[DuckieTigger]

Monetary reimbursment for giving up consumer rights? Why? You always have the right to not purchase an ebook. More than likely you probably did not even purchase an ebook, but a licence to read it.

[crich70]

And I suppose you can't just give your ebooks away in your will either. I know you can't share a given ebook that you have bought for yourself with another person. In fact the retailers often say as much, but does that also count in the case of your will if you want to leave your ebook collection to a surviving relative/friend? You would think it wouldn't as you certainly won't be around to keep a copy but I wager someone will argue that even that is illegal though of course they'd have trouble bringing you to court for obvious reasons.

[mandy314]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Monetary reimbursment for giving up consumer rights? Why? You always have the right to not purchase an ebook. More than likely you probably did not even purchase an ebook, but a licence to read it.

My reading license I aquired at age of seven iirc, renewed it with finishing high school and with some academic degrees. Perhaps approaching senior citizen age I should consider to turn in my reading license alongside the driving and the "think for yourself" licenses me no longer getting the "modern world".

I see your point. My own fault to buy an ebook (license) with the Terms of Use clearly pointed out. I haven't an issue with this one. The argument one can't own an ebook like an pbook because it being an immaterial good has a good deal of face value too. But if publishers can sell licences, retailers/bookstores can sell licences why has the bucket to stop with the end user (us readers that is)? Sorry to have mentioned monetary reimbursement - I'm not in it for the money.

But I'm appalled seeing a high level court judging Term of Use prohibiting the reselling of ebooks legal. In Germany the legal situation isn't clearcut at all - could have gone either way I think. Afaik selling of used Steam licences is legal, so is selling of games on CD/DVD but not of downloaded games. Music CD or Video DVD/BlueRay no problem - downloaded music/video no go. Used software licences on the other hand can be sold.

That's all - but it gives me the wish for a "licence to kill" - virtually only of course.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by mandy314

My reading license I aquired at age of seven iirc, renewed it with finishing high school and with some academic degrees. Perhaps approaching senior citizen age I should consider to turn in my reading license alongside the driving and the "think for yourself" licenses me no longer getting the "modern world".

I see your point. My own fault to buy an ebook (license) with the Terms of Use clearly pointed out. I haven't an issue with this one. The argument one can't own an ebook like an pbook because it being an immaterial good has a good deal of face value too. But if publishers can sell licences, retailers/bookstores can sell licences why has the bucket to stop with the end user (us readers that is)? Sorry to have mentioned monetary reimbursement - I'm not in it for the money.

But I'm appalled seeing a high level court judging Term of Use prohibiting the reselling of ebooks legal. In Germany the legal situation isn't clearcut at all - could have gone either way I think. Afaik selling of used Steam licences is legal, so is selling of games on CD/DVD but not of downloaded games. Music CD or Video DVD/BlueRay no problem - downloaded music/video no go. Used software licences on the other hand can be sold.

That's all - but it gives me the wish for a "licence to kill" - virtually only of course.

Tell em Bond sent you.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by mandy314

But I'm appalled seeing a high level court judging Term of Use prohibiting the reselling of ebooks legal. In Germany the legal situation isn't clearcut at all - could have gone either way I think. Afaik selling of used Steam licences is legal, so is selling of games on CD/DVD but not of downloaded games. Music CD or Video DVD/BlueRay no problem - downloaded music/video no go. Used software licences on the other hand can be sold.

It's a clear legal precedent:

You can't resell downloaded MP3 files.
You can't resell downloaded apps bought from the iTunes or Android App stores.
You can't resell downloaded digital content in general, it seems to me.

[Little.Egret]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's a clear legal precedent:

You can't resell downloaded MP3 files.
You can't resell downloaded apps bought from the iTunes or Android App stores.
You can't resell downloaded digital content in general, it seems to me.

Yep.

If it's sold to you on a CD you can sell the CD but not a copy.

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's a clear legal precedent:

You can't resell downloaded MP3 files.
You can't resell downloaded apps bought from the iTunes or Android App stores.
You can't resell downloaded digital content in general, it seems to me.

That's changing actually. A recent EU ruling was that game download services can't prevent customers from transferring licenses.

[mandy314]

Yes, things can change - but in what way? Let's see some products of my poor imagination ...

- geo-locked ebooks (an extended holiday licence is available)
- personalized ebook licences (a family&friends package is available)
- ebooks only as streams (various flatrates are available)

All things in the cloud, online all the time - so why not: live geo-localization, live bio-metric identification. And the always on back-channel so that the ebook provider can check for criminal activities. Criminal? Yes as we won't discuss Terms Of Use anymore. All the juicy bits will have found their way into criminal law. Jailbreaking gets you into jail - that's a funny one, isn't it. But the prize (so everything) will be alright (tune in JJ Cale).

Yes, you can't own digital content.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by mandy314

Yes, things can change - but in what way? Let's see some products of my poor imagination ...

- geo-locked ebooks (an extended holiday licence is available)
- personalized ebook licences (a family&friends package is available)
- ebooks only as streams (various flatrates are available)

All things in the cloud, online all the time - so why not: live geo-localization, live bio-metric identification. And the always on back-channel so that the ebook provider can check for criminal activities. Criminal? Yes as we won't discuss Terms Of Use anymore. All the juicy bits will have found their way into criminal law. Jailbreaking gets you into jail - that's a funny one, isn't it. But the prize (so everything) will be alright (tune in JJ Cale).

Yes, you can't own digital content.

Mandy,

You knew what the terms of the licence agreement were when you bought the book. As a consumer, the option is open to you to vote with your money and not buy the product if you don't like it. It's no use willingly and voluntarily agreeing to a contract, and then complaining about it afterwards. Nobody is forcing you to buy ebooks if you don't like the licence terms.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You knew what the terms of the licence agreement were when you bought the book. As a consumer, the option is open to you to vote with your money and not buy the product if you don't like it. It's no use willingly and voluntarily agreeing to a contract, and then complaining about it afterwards. Nobody is forcing you to buy ebooks if you don't like the licence terms.

But isn't the question if such things should be allowed to be in the license agreement?

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's no use willingly and voluntarily agreeing to a contract, and then complaining about it afterwards. Nobody is forcing you to buy ebooks if you don't like the licence terms.

I had a hard time getting used to the idea at first - the not owning and licence deal with ebooks. It is not all bad - having the bookstore worry about storing and keeping a backup copy is great. If I chose not to (and I don't) then I can skip the time consuming task of making regular backups of my data. If I were to lose every single gadget, computer, phone, and backup disk all of a sudden, I still would not lose my ebooks. All I would need is some device again. Try that with a paper library after e.g. a house fire.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

But isn't the question if such things should be allowed to be in the license agreement?

Cause and effect. It is the other way around - you want something changed in the terms, and to do so you question if it was legal to begin with. Assumption is that pbooks and ebooks should be treated equally. And no, that does not work that easy. You are allowed to resell a pbook (the paper, ink and everything) - and yet the new owner cannot do as he sees fit with the words contained in it. Ebooks only consist of the words (the copyrighted stuff) - and limitations are similar to the words contained in a pbook. Only way I can see it get changed is by declaring parts of the copyright laws illegal.

[Little.Egret]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Mandy,

You knew what the terms of the licence agreement were when you bought the book. As a consumer, the option is open to you to vote with your money and not buy the product if you don't like it. It's no use willingly and voluntarily agreeing to a contract, and then complaining about it afterwards. Nobody is forcing you to buy ebooks if you don't like the licence terms.

Technically you can go to court anyway thus in the UK the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_...Terms_Act_1977
provides an example.

Fat chance, but the principle is there.

[Tarana]

If I chose not to (and I don't) then I can skip the time consuming task of making regular backups of my data.

That works until your company goes out of business like Books on Board. As far as dying, licenses are not transferable even by a will. What I had to do is use the password my friend provided me before his death and change the name on the Amazon account to my own. Then Amazon 'consolidated' the account by transferring e-content over to my account. This was in 2011. Who knows what they would allow now. Fortunately, for my sisters, not only have I downloaded books, stripped DRM and loaded into Calibre, but they also know where I store my passwords should they need them.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Mandy,

You knew what the terms of the licence agreement were when you bought the book. As a consumer, the option is open to you to vote with your money and not buy the product if you don't like it. It's no use willingly and voluntarily agreeing to a contract, and then complaining about it afterwards. Nobody is forcing you to buy ebooks if you don't like the licence terms.

Do you usually read ToS and EULAs? Most people don't. Often they are also hard to find.

It is an interesting question if a ToS is enforceable, when it hasn't been read. I also note that you are not necessarily even forced to read or click through them.