E-Book pirate: We are the same as Amazon, only the price is different

[Alexander Turcic]

The whole story seems a tad far-fetched, but a bunch of e-book pirates has made it their mission to compete against Amazon. Torboox is a pirate site which would have stayed in a darkened, cool underground cavern had it not been for an interview with the operator of said site that resulted in a lawsuit against two major German newspapers. A classic Streisand Effect. Anyhow, TorrentFreak, too, had an interview with these guys and was told that their ultimate goal was to bring down Amazon's quasi-monopoly as an e-book seller.

“If you look at it, they are very similar. Amazon is nothing but a hoster for the authors. No wonder they can offer 70% provision,” he [Spiegelbest, the operator of the pirate site] says.

“Amazon does nothing to ‘produce’ books. Thus they are very similar to Torboox. Both of us – legal and illegal – are book hosters, not traditional book publishers. The ebook market is shared between two book hosters.”

The pirate claims that piracy "controls" around 50 percent of the whole e-book market with Amazon owning the majority of the rest. He goes on explaining how Amazon's size is bad for authors and publishers, and that the only way out was a flat-rate on e-books that, conveniently, the pirate site is planning to offer.

“In the end the publishers have to talk to us. They have to find a way to make us legal. It is their job not ours. A flatrate will be 10 euros a month – no limit. Licensing will again be the job of the publishers. If a publisher isn’t wise enough to participate – no problem,” Spiegelbest says. [...]

We have the concept. The publishers have the content. Together we can indeed battle Amazon. And Amazon is not monopolizing films, games or music – why ebooks? For me the biggest problem is this: Will the publishers understand before they vanish? That’s 50-50, no more,” he concludes.

Related: E-book customer sharing with anti-piracy group BREIN faces political backlash, Rapidshare loses court battle against German booksellers

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic

The whole story seems a tad far-fetched, but a bunch of e-book pirates has made it their mission to compete against Amazon. Torboox is a pirate site which would have stayed in a darkened, cool underground cavern had it not been for an interview with the operator of said site that resulted in a lawsuit against two major German newspapers. A classic Streisand Effect. Anyhow, TorrentFreak, too, had an interview with these guys and was told that their ultimate goal was to bring down Amazon's quasi-monopoly as an e-book seller.



The pirate claims that piracy "controls" around 50 percent of the whole e-book market with Amazon owning the majority of the rest. He goes on explaining how Amazon's size is bad for authors and publishers, and that the only way out was a flat-rate on e-books that, conveniently, the pirate site is planning to offer.

Yes, it's up to us authors. And just how does this guy propose to pay us? I hear that 10 pounds a month, but is there an actual infrastructure for payment? Or am I just supposed to trust some pirate after I turn over my stuff. *Nods* Sound believable. Uh-huh.

[rcuadro]

What the hell did I just read? It sound more like extortion than anything else.
The publisher have to find a way to make a pirate site legal?

[MattW]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Yes, it's up to us authors. And just how does this guy propose to pay us? I hear that 10 pounds a month, but is there an actual infrastructure for payment? Or am I just supposed to trust some pirate after I turn over my stuff. *Nods* Sound believable. Uh-huh.

I don't think you'd need to fear that. If the proposed scheme comes to pass, it won't be with those guys, it'll be set up by a more legitimate company (like this iOS-only startup Oyster, only bigger). What I would fear if I were an author would be the Spotify/Pandora-effect -- that the money an individual author gets out of this is a few cents a month.

Flat-rate doesn't really work if its not limited (two books per week, for example); all the music flatrate services are making money only by paying the actual artists a mere pittance. Sure, if you're Kanye West, a tenth of a cent for a song adds up, but not if you're some mid-range artist.

Why? That's exactly what makes unlimited flat-rates so enticing for consumers: you pay a little, get a lot and can feel good about compensating the artist while in reality only compensating a particular company.

Matt

The American way to deal with pirates--call in SEAL Team 6.

But seriously, pirates are bad for authors no matter what spin these guys try to put on it. And I find it difficult to believe that 50% of eBooks are pirated. We are not talking about software or music. The majority of people who read are probably at least a little better educated and intelligent, but not as prone to being geeky enough or dishonest enough to steal books. Yes many of us here know how to strip DRM, though I suspect we are in the minority within the whole eBook community. But we strip the DRM to make a book easier to read on our equipment and to make sure we will always have a usable copy of it. Most of us don't distribute those stripped copies to others.

[Jessica Lares]

*YAWN*

I love looking at the comments at TorrentFreak. It lightens up a dull moment, especially with all the stupidity.

I only torrent stuff because it's out of purchase reach. I remember when I used to go on 7Digital and have access to international material. Well, a few years back, they took that away. So I can't give them my money unless I go on the iTunes UK store and use gift cards. But then it's rare that you even see gift cards on eBay that aren't for the US store.

I don't want to be subjected to import fees or fees due to using my credit card on an international site. I just want to buy my music now, not when the US gets it 6 months later and it becomes "cool" here.

When you pirate, you don't just hurt the author, you hurt the whole industry. It is not just a writer and their publisher, it's a whole team of people. And the same goes with music. There is the label, the songwriter, the sound engineers, the person who masters the work, and everyone else.

When I was taking audio engineering in my first year at college, they said that you could be making $2,000 a day per every artist/band working in there. But most of that money goes to up keeping. You have to keep up with the styles of music, the new tech that people are wanting to use to record, and it's an ongoing thing of buying and selling stuff.

When artists and labels can't afford to do music the proper way, you put everyone involved out of business.

And I'm tired of the whole "I'm only going to listen to it 10 times" and "music isn't good anymore" theories that these jerks have. You either go the streaming route, or you don't download it at all and listen to it on the radio like the rest of us.

People think that you can make a radio friendly song in a day. That is FAR from the truth.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by MattW

I don't think you'd need to fear that. If the proposed scheme comes to pass, it won't be with those guys, it'll be set up by a more legitimate company (like this iOS-only startup Oyster, only bigger). What I would fear if I were an author would be the Spotify/Pandora-effect -- that the money an individual author gets out of this is a few cents a month.

Flat-rate doesn't really work if its not limited (two books per week, for example); all the music flatrate services are making money only by paying the actual artists a mere pittance. Sure, if you're Kanye West, a tenth of a cent for a song adds up, but not if you're some mid-range artist.

Why? That's exactly what makes unlimited flat-rates so enticing for consumers: you pay a little, get a lot and can feel good about compensating the artist while in reality only compensating a particular company.

Matt

Agreed. I buy artwork and I've also talked to artists. I can't BELIEVE the pennies they get for the downloads. I try to go direct to artists whenever possible. Even if I'm paying an average of a dollar to 2 dollars per download, I'd rather that go to the artist. But some artists don't have websites and some charge 70 dollars for one photo (non-exclusive). So I usually find myself back at the "subscription" sites. I have worked with a few artists however and we've negotiated a reasonable payment (which for me means 10 to 15 per photo).

I did check out oyster (Did I get that name right? I can't remember). Anyway, I don't see a lot of benefit for an author other than exposure in the early days. But the way smashwords ships books isn't always that much of a benefit. Most of the time here lately, they ship the best selling 10k books. They may or may not push the rest eventually, depending on the retailer and what the retailer wants. I sell okay on Smash, but I am not in their top selling.

I don't actually see a lot of benefit as a reader to those subscriptions either. Oh sure, if I could download 80 books all at once and then cancel my sub, sure. But I can't read 80 books a year so ...and I don't want to sort them either. I already spend DAYS sorting artwork when it's time to buy. And by days I mean it takes me an average of two weeks. I load the wish bucket, sort, test, etc. Then I start downloading and working. I change out some things in the bucket as I learn from the design. With books? It would be like the freebie game now. I'd read a chapter here and there...I'd set this aside and before I know it, I'm spending all my time sorting.

[ucfgrad93]

Originally Posted by rcuadro

What the hell did I just read? It sound more like extortion than anything else.
The publisher have to find a way to make a pirate site legal?

To me, it seems like he is trying to justify pirating other people's work. I think authors, musicians, etc. should be payed for their work and will not pirate.

[WillysJeepMan]

Originally Posted by jswinden

The American way to deal with pirates--call in SEAL Team 6.

But seriously, pirates are bad for authors no matter what spin these guys try to put on it. And I find it difficult to believe that 50% of eBooks are pirated. We are not talking about software or music.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that 50% of the ebooks are pirated. They're not saying that 50% of people who read ebooks are pirates. There's a difference.

People who pirate books are more likely to have far more ebooks than those who pay for them. It is quite likely that the number of pirated ebooks floating around is 50%.

Originally Posted by jswinden

The majority of people who read are probably at least a little better educated and intelligent, but not as prone to being geeky enough or dishonest enough to steal books. Yes many of us here know how to strip DRM, though I suspect we are in the minority within the whole eBook community. But we strip the DRM to make a book easier to read on our equipment and to make sure we will always have a usable copy of it. Most of us don't distribute those stripped copies to others.

Those are broad generalizations that might make members of MR feel good, but there's no way to know if that is accurate. Honestly, you have no clue what the percentages are. Neither do I.

[DBDigital]

Well for one thing these people are rather lacking in the mental department. Why would they think this wouldn't paint a big BULLSEYE on themselves?

As for pirating makes up 50% of the industry, no way lol. The simple reason is, in my experience that if someone pirates, they wouldn't have bought it anyway (there are exceptions, such as if they can't purchase the content normally due to crazy restrictions). And in the long run it doesn't really hurt the artist/publisher. Granted they shouldn't say here do whatever, but if you give simple easy ways to buy people will do it. And think about it, it is FREE advertising. If 50 pirates talk to say 3 friends each that something is a great book, they likely will go buy it from their e-reader than go underground. And you just made a whole bunch of sales you wouldn't have otherwise.

This is something the industry just doesn't understand. Something else to consider: Libraries. Just like what was posted here a few days ago, the publishers make libraries pay a exorbitant fee per book because they think that it costs them sales. But again the people that barrow from a library usually can't buy the book anyway. And they might tell friends that CAN buy it and you make sales you wouldn't have otherwise.

Publishers only seem to see part of the picture. Like I said I am not saying they should give away the work, but on the other hand I think they go crazy with DRM that just hurts them in the long run.

[Man Eating Duck]

Originally Posted by ucfgrad93

To me, it seems like he is trying to justify pirating other people's work. I think authors, musicians, etc. should be payed for their work and will not pirate.

To be clear from the start: I don't at all support the endeavour of the entity mentioned in the first post, I think that's a wrong way to express your opinion (if that's what it is).

I pay for the vast majority of the books I read. I'm by no means rich, but I have absolutely no problem paying for a good book. I mainly buy from Kobo, Amazon, and Diesel. There are, however, cases where I will content myself with an illicit copy:

1. Not available in your country
   Shut up and take my money. No? Ok, I'll get it from elsewhere. I subscribe to an excellent VPN service with which I can pretend to be in the US or wherever in order to pay you, but I don't know why I should bother with that. I actually tried to give you my money, if you won't take it, fine. The most egregious example was when I tried to buy a "hit" book from a Norwegian author, which was not available in my country (Norway). I really don't understand what's up with that (and didn't bother to even acquire the book by any means).
2. False advertising from Amazon
   I hate region price gouging. I get emails all the time from Amazon, advertising really good offers on books I'm interested in. Well, whaddyaknow, when I actually click the link the price is suddenly 3-6 times higher than what I was offered. That is false advertising, which entails heavy punishment for companies where I live (Norway, which is of course why Amazon feels it can up the price -- Norwegians can pay). Amazon knows perfectly well where I live from my account info, and thus they hope I will just pay the higher price anyway. Sorry, no sale, and I now suddenly have no scruples getting similar bytes from elsewhere. I've been in contact with Amazon several times about their emails, and they pretend not to be aware of the problem, every time. But, if you say "fuck you" to me, well, right back at you. When I click a link offering e a book for $2.99, and the real price I have to pay to actually get the book turns out to be $16.74 because I'm Norwegian -- sorry, no deal. And I'll just help myself, by the way.
3. Not available as ebook.
   This is a bit more iffy for me. On several occasions I've emailed authors prior to reading a pirate-produced ebook, telling them that I would like to reimburse them for the pleasure reading their book will surely incur. The responses are generally of the variety "I can't take a donation for you. Sorry, no plans for an ebook" (or the equally useless "just wait, and a legal ebook will eventually be available"). Not good enough. One author responded with "Pay for a pbook and have it sent to a good cause, and I'm fine with your reading a pirated version". I won't disclose which particular author this was, as I'm not sure if the person would appreciate being mentioned in this post. However, the latter is a brilliant move, the former -- well, what can you do?

As a side note I work at a publishing company, trying my hardest to produce the best ebooks possible for our authors. I surely appreciate the need for reimbursing authors for their work, and I do understand the difficulties involved in distribution of said works, but as a reader I can say that's it not always feasible to go legit. The proper response to that might be "I will not pirate", but I don't really see a reason not to if you've given the publisher and author enough opportunities to claim your money. I want to read the book, after all

[MattW]

Originally Posted by Man Eating Duck

[*]False advertising from Amazon
I hate region price gouging. I get emails all the time from Amazon, advertising really good offers on books I'm interested in. Well, whaddyaknow, when I actually click the link the price is suddenly 3-6 times higher than what I was offered. That is false advertising, which entails heavy punishment for companies where I live (Norway, which is of course why Amazon feels it can up the price -- Norwegians can pay). Amazon knows perfectly well where I live from my account info, and thus they hope I will just pay the higher price anyway. Sorry, no sale, and I now suddenly have no scruples getting similar bytes from elsewhere.

Hm. So, basically, you're saying "Screw the author because Amazon dashed my hopes for a bargain. The writer did nothing wrong, even so I'll steal their work from them and if they don't like it, they can suck it." Personally, I find this a very weak straw-man argument.

Originally Posted by Man Eating Duck

[*]Not available as ebook.
This is a bit more iffy for me. On several occasions I've emailed authors prior to reading a pirate-produced ebook, telling them that I would like to reimburse them for the pleasure reading their book will surely incur. The responses are generally of the variety "I can't take a donation for you. Sorry, no plans for an ebook" (or the equally useless "just wait, and a legal ebook will eventually be available"). Not good enough. One author responded with "Pay for a pbook and have it sent to a good cause, and I'm fine with your reading a pirated version".

This one isn't as bad as the previous one; it's merely a rephrasing of the "I want what I want, exactly the way I want it, whenever I want it and I want it immediately" mentality that's so prevalent these days. I'm not sure this sense of entitlement is justified, but I don't think I'll convince you of that.[1] It's just a different set of values; you obviously value your own need of having a certain book as an ebook (and not in paper) higher than the right of its writer (or publisher) to determine when and how to sell it.

We could argue this in circles for ages, all I'm saying is the world doesn't just revolve around me, you or anyone else in particular. There's no ebook version of a certain book? Fine, you could always buy the pbook, go to a library or don't read it.[2] Life will go on.

I'm not trying to judge you here (even if I sound like I do), I'm merely stating how I feel about these things.

Matt

[1] If you're visually impaired and can't possibly read a paper book, you might have a stronger argument. But even then, see footnote 2.

[2] Or buy the pbook, give it to someone else (or a library; these usually take new books) and then download a "pirated" copy (It'd be just like scanning an OCR'ing it, only cutting out the whole scanning and OCR'ing). Copyright nerds will still take you to task for not destroying your copy, but you can either wait with the whole giving-it-away thing until after you've read your ebook or you coudl tell those copyright nerds to go screw themselves and find some real criminals to prosecute

[doctorow]

"“In the end the publishers have to talk to us. They have to find a way to make us legal. It is their job not ours."

These guys are clowns enjoying a short-lived moment in limelight. Nothing more.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by ucfgrad93

To me, it seems like he is trying to justify pirating other people's work. I think authors, musicians, etc. should be payed for their work and will not pirate.

It does sound like he's trying to make himself sound more legal by pointing out the shortcomings of what is out there now doesn't it.
Not that the legal sources don't make it easy for someone to decide to go that route with their DRM and high prices.

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by MattW

Hm. So, basically, you're saying "Screw the author because Amazon dashed my hopes for a bargain. The writer did nothing wrong, even so I'll steal their work from them and if they don't like it, they can suck it." Personally, I find this a very weak straw-man argument.

I'm not sure 'straw-man' applies.. If anything, you might consider it a red herring.

The question is how to justify differential pricing.
Now, if the publisher were an ethical one (e.g. AKPress) I would consider a true differential pricing model justifiable. However, in case of Amazon, I really don't trust that they have both the customer's and their employees' best interests at heart.
More generally, and I would suggest ignoring the whole issue of georestrictions and nation-states for now, what I would find acceptable is a system where people from some areas were to pay more than people from others. The issue with the model as employed by Amazon, as well as by a lot of companies, is one where the differential pricing only happens by country, rather than by income quintile (or whatever). In the US, you'd never see Amazon charging one price to people who live in Martha's Vineyard or the Hamptons, and another to people living in Detroit or Appalachia. This makes differential pricing based on nation-state seem particularly unfair, both because the richest people in the US are far richer than the richest people in Norway, and because the median income in the US is much lower than in Norway.

The other issue is what to do with the intuition that 'if you've heard of a <book>, and you are unable to read it because of either Customs or georestriction issues, you are now justified to want to read the <book>. On the one hand, this seems wrong, because of how we are taught to think about product access -- in terms of "sales"/"consumption". On the other -- looked at from the social perspective of being told that someone has a story they would like to tell you -- the intuition that you should be allowed to hear that story seems quite logical. A further problem is created by the suggestion that your 'purchase' somehow matters to the author, as well as to the whole system of creating cultural works. The question is whether your right to share in the story (or piece of music, or whatever) is stronger than the duty to support the author (or the author+system) that supposedly forms a necessary condition for sharing in the cultural expression.

I do not know the answer to that question, but it seems to me that it should be possible to structure this system differently in ways that still 'promote the arts', but that make it easier for people to share their thoughts with one another; this would quite likely lead to a diminution, as well as changes to the whole publishing ecosystem, but that's inevitable, given its function as part conduit, part gatekeeper, etc.. But organizational form is not sacred, and I don't see any particular reason why this particular system deserves the status it has today.