Amazon against the rest, or where to get your books

[Katsunami]

When I started to fiddle with ereaders in 2007, there only was one relevant format: mobipocket. Epub didn't even exist. Now it's the other way around. Epub is the default format for all readers, except the Kindle, which uses a format based on mobipocket. I would like to know some of your thoughts.

1. Is it safe to buy ebooks from Amazon? They are very big, but they're alone, and not the standard. It's them against all others.
2. I will strip any drm from any ebook I buy. Therefore, I'm inclined to buy epub books, and then convert them to mobi, for use on the Kindle. This way, there is a better chance to be able to use the epubs in the future, without converting them.
3. Because of 1 and 2, I think that buying epub books and then converting them to Kindle format is safer than the other way around. It just feels more future proof. Same as programming on the computer: write a program to work in all the default cases, then adapt for the specific ones; you (almost) never do it the other way around.
4. Will Amazon ever allow epub on the Kindle? There are many rumors stating that they are working on it. Search the web, and you'll find many rumors very quickly.
5. Is Mobipocket.com still a relevant site; are those programs still updated? The library seems to be mostly empty.

If I feel epub to be a better choice than the Amazon / mobi format, then why do I have a Kindle? For me, the device came out of the reviews the best, with the least software problems, and, according to many reviewers, the best build quality. Being an embedded software engineer and backend web developer (so I know my way around computers), and already knowing about drm removal and format conversion, the lack of epub was not too big of a concern.

Still, I can say that, if I didn't know anything about that, I would be hesitant to get a Kindle and be fully locked into the Amazon format because of it. Ironically, that is what made the Kindle big, because the Amazon store is to the Kindle what the Apple store is to an iPod

I would like to know your thoughts and point of view.

[rcuadro]

I am smart enough to purchase a book from where I want, strip DRM, and use calibre to convert to what I want and read it on my device of choice. The rest of my family... no.
Amazon allows me the ability to share books with the fam. Heck, I can send them books with out them doing anything on their part save telling me.
The kindles read the mobi format, amazon sells them, it works for me. As it is I have 15 kindles on my account. Everything from a Kindle 1 to the newest Kindle Fire... and that is not counting the iPads, iPhones, iPod Touches, android phones and tablets.

Is ePub better? Perhaps... but it is irrelevant for me since the Amazon ecosystem works for my situation though it may not work for everyone.

Keep in mind that you can remove the DRM from a book bought from Amazon as easily as an ePub from somewhere else.

[wallcraft]

The new KF8 format is Amazon's answer to ePub. So far as I know, any existing ePub can be converted one for one into KF8 (there may be exceptions, and if so I would be interested in what they are). The situation with ePub 3 is less clear, but no one supports ePub 3 yet and Apple just killed it as a standard anyway with their new author tools.

For reading standard novels I don't find MOBI's limitations much of a problem, so I increasingly buy from Amazon unless there is a reason not to. The MOBIs convert well to ePub. If (when?) Amazon adds KF8 support to K4PC and K4MAC, and when Calibre has KF8 to ePub conversion, there will be even less reason to buy an ePub - just buy from Amazon and download the KF8 via a K4 app.

[ATDrake]

1. It's safe but sometimes annoying because if for some reason the formatting or text is messed up, it's considerably easier and less time-consuming to strip and fix just the broken parts of an otherwise properly-constructed wonky ePub than to strip, decompile, edit the resulting single HTML file, and recompile a Mobi.

But that's generally not a consideration for most people.

OTOH, I am also a Kindle owner who prefers to get an ePub source for my books, all else (pricing, re-downloadability from the cloud, etc.) being reasonably equal.

2. Don't ever spend money on an Apple iBook. Their is the ePub DRM flavour which currently does not have the tools to easily remove for backup. For the record, B&N's basically glorified username+password DRM scheme is more flexible than Adobe's, and does not require downloading through special software that needs to be authenticated with a central server with a limit on the number of devices you can authenticate.

4. Probably not. They are pushing their new KF8 format instead.

Hope this helps.

[CWatkinsNash]

Because of your #2, where is the lock-in? I have a Kindle, and I don't feel locked in at all, because of #2. Yes, I buy books from Amazon, but I also buy books from B&N, Harlequin (stop giggling), ARE, and about a dozen other places. #2 makes this possible.

I have an epub ereader, which I never use, but it's there and it works. I could easily switch to, say, a Sony (those T1s are tempting me) with little trouble. All my ebooks are in calibre, easily converted as needed...

Rumors are a dime a dozen, but sometimes the unexpected does happen. If Amazon allows epub, though, I suspect it would be drm-free epub only. I really can't see Amazon paying Adobe when they don't have to, and they are big enough that they don't have to.

Mobipocket is pretty much dead. The Mobipocket Creator software, though, is excellent to have on hand if you have a use for it.

And it's worth noting that while Amazon is the only seller of drmed mobi (azw) files, they are not the only source of mobi files - ARE, Smashwords, and several others offer drm-free .prc or .mobi files for purchase. It's the DRM that's the issue here, not the format.

I love my Kindle Keyboard, I won't pretend to be unbiased about that. I've tried a few others (Nook, Kobo, tablets, etc) and as I mentioned, I have other ereaders, but my Kindle is my favorite by far. But that's separate from Amazon. I do a lot of business with them, but I'm not exclusive. And it's because, again, of #2.

[bgalbrecht]

Since I have a Nook, I'll buy an epub before buying from Amazon if they are the same price. If it's cheaper at Amazon, I'll get it from there but convert it to epub.

[Ken Maltby]

Assuming that you are keeping all the DRM free .epub files, you should have as much of
the future covered as possible. Converting to read on your Kindle should not be much
of a chore. It looks like you are set as far as the tools and skills needed to face changes
in the future.

Unless, Amazon tightens its DRM and gains control of the supply of manuscripts through
exclusive contracts. That is more of a threat to publishers and authors, in the long run,
than to us consumers, but it would not bode well for us either.

As you yourself demonstrate buying a Kindle, or any other device, need not "lock you
into" a particular ebook provider. Convenience need not rule our lives, anything can be
taken too far. Those who sell their soul for a little convenience may live to regret it at
some point.

Luck;
Ken

[Katsunami]

ATDrake, what is your reason to prefer an epub source? For me, it's only the fact that it's the default format, at the moment. I don't use (and even detest) any clouds, ecosystems and walled gardens.

I even keep a backup of all my original books outside of calibre. If I need more than one format in the future, say KF8, then I want to start from the same source, so: epub -> mobi, epub -> kf8, epub -> whatever. Or, mobi -> epub, mobi -> kf8, if the original book was a mobi. Making a chain of conversions between non-standard formats will be more risky.

Also I think that, because epub is the default, conversion from and to the format will be implemented faster and more accurately than conversion between two non-standard formats. I would not be surprised to see people doing mobi -> epub -> kf8 (or the other way around) before mobi -> kf8 becomes available.

Cwatkinsnash: I just want to keep rampant conversions from and to other formats in check.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

ATDrake, what is your reason to prefer an epub source?

A number of reasons, not least of which is the fact that ePub is actually an official standard which is decently documented and can be made/tweaked with standard tools and displayed on anyone's compatible software instead of relying upon what Amazon gives or people are able to reverse-engineer.

But I really do prefer the neat way that ePubs are laid out in zip packages and can be edited a chapter at a time if I need to fix some really bad typos (assuming the maker didn't dump the entire book into a single text file) or add a table of contents with flickable chapter marks. It's simply so much easier to work with if I have to alter anything at all, including the metadata.

Also, I buy a lot of stuff which is either the same price or considerably cheaper if I get it from another source than Amazon, such as Fictionwise's DRM-free MultiFormat offerings, which have a number of backlist works reprinted by e-publishers which can be discounted considerably using the weekend coupons. Sometimes Kobo also works out to cheaper pricing with their own more sporadic discount coupons.

And I buy things directly from the author/publisher as well, and many of them who sell direct from their sites provide a Mobi version that's been generated from an ePub or Word document by Calibre (which shows up in the metadata), so I might as well get a format that's closer to the source, so to speak.

Also, potentially future-proofing.

I have a Kindle now, I might have something else as my primary reader in the future. The less I have to strip and convert later, the happier I'll probably be, especially as Amazon occasionally does things to mess up the available DRM removal tools, which is easier for them to do because they control the format and the devices it goes to, and they've done it at least twice that I know of since I first got my Kindle.

B&N and Adobe can't mess with their setup nearly as easily, as it's been licensed to other device makers and thus harder to make more arbitrary changes to.

And of course my primary preference is for DRM-free MultiFormat to begin with, just to bypass all of this when possible. But I usually still download the ePub and convert to Mobi, because sometimes I don't like the default Calibre settings people having been using (putting the HTML TOC at the end of the book, for instance) and can also get the tightest compression and save space on my Kindle's puny 1.4 GB available space with custom settings in KindleGen.

[pidgeon92]

I have purchased hundreds of ebooks from Amazon. I most certainly consider them a safe retailer to purchase from.

[Katsunami]

Thanks for your elaborate explanation, ATDrake. It seems we think much alike.

[ucfgrad93]

Originally Posted by pidgeon92

I have purchased hundreds of ebooks from Amazon. I most certainly consider them a safe retailer to purchase from.

Agreed.

[emellaich]

I am reasonably comfortable with Amazon and buy many books from them. However, to set the record straight for some of the newer folks, in the ebook world: amazon has already abandoned one ebook format . They used to be in the market with a format before Mobi. Then they closed down their ebook store, and took a hiatus for a while.

Anyone who bought one of these original Amazon ebooks, would have to rebuy it in Kindle format today.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by emellaich

I am reasonably comfortable with Amazon and buy many books from them. However, to set the record straight for some of the newer folks, in the ebook world: amazon has already abandoned one ebook format . They used to be in the market with a format before Mobi. Then they closed down their ebook store, and took a hiatus for a while.

Anyone who bought one of these original Amazon ebooks, would have to rebuy it in Kindle format today.

This is why I prefer the default formats with anything. I've seen camera makers drop Raw support for their older camera's in new programs, fully knowing that the older programs didn't run on newer operating systems. Therefore I use software to convert anything to Dng, as soon as possible. (My current cameras even shoots Dng natively.) This is also the reason why I refuse to buy computer games that require an always on internet connection. If EA, or another publisher takes the authentication server offline, your game is done for.

And, your explanation is precisely why I immediately strip drm from any book and convert it to epub (but I archive all versions: the original, the stripped one, and the resulting epub).

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

But I really do prefer the neat way that ePubs are laid out in zip packages and can be edited a chapter at a time if I need to fix some really bad typos (assuming the maker didn't dump the entire book into a single text file) or add a table of contents with flickable chapter marks

Yes assuming they are in not in one big file. But then again, I seen epubs that split chapters into seperate files (as in more than one file per chapter). As for TOC (clickable), that is another weak point of epub, as it does not require your to have it, but mobi does. So you would not have to worry about having to ADD a TOC when editing a mobi.

Originally Posted by emellaich

amazon has already abandoned one ebook format . They used to be in the market with a format before Mobi. Then they closed down their ebook store, and took a hiatus for a while.

Anyone who bought one of these original Amazon ebooks, would have to rebuy it in Kindle format today.

And where is that any different than Sony and their LRF format?

Originally Posted by Katsunami

1. Is it safe to buy ebooks from Amazon? They are very big, but they're alone, and not the standard. It's them against all others.

Where do you get the idea that they are not the standard? Based on number of ebooks sold? Certainly not. Based on number of dedicated ereader/epaper devices that support mobi vs. epub? NO. Ok argueably, there is more different devices out there from different companies, but they don't make up in number what the Kindles out there have. Based on total number of devices that can read mobi vs. epub? NO. With Kindle for: android, PC, Mac, iPad there is not a whole lot non-dedicated reading devices out there that support epub and not mobi.
Or even that they are alone? NO, see this quote:

Originally Posted by CWatkinsNash

And it's worth noting that while Amazon is the only seller of drmed mobi (azw) files, they are not the only source of mobi files - ARE, Smashwords, and several others offer drm-free .prc or .mobi files for purchase. It's the DRM that's the issue here, not the format.

Yeah, I used to believe that going non-Kindle is the way to go as to not limit yourself. In reality it is (at least today, who knows what tomorrow brings) limiting to NOT go Kindle. I am not looking to convert to Kindle-only, but I certainly are looking to add a Kindle to my collection.