Wha'happen with ePUB4? Anybody know?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If you forgo MathML and use SVG, you'll have greater support.

Oh, no, you don't say?

Go ahead, snookums. You make an eBook with 2,000 SVG teeny-weeny images in it. You let me know how that goes for ya. Or more (yes, we've done it).

Of course, it's got sweet FA support in older Kindles, too, let's not forget.

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But which of the two mentioned Sigil plugins that's removing the NCX should not be doing it. It's a lot easier to remove it manually then to have to add it back.

I know for you it's trivial to make a new NCX. But why is it being removed in the first place?

Wolfie:

B/c it's not really part of the ePUB3 spec, maybe? Hell, I don't know. I just...hang out here.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Wolfie:

B/c it's not really part of the ePUB3 spec, maybe? Hell, I don't know. I just...hang out here.

Hitch

But without the NCX, you lose backwards compatibility (Yes, I know you know).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Oh, no, you don't say?

Go ahead, snookums. You make an eBook with 2,000 SVG teeny-weeny images in it. You let me know how that goes for ya. Or more (yes, we've done it).

Of course, it's got sweet FA support in older Kindles, too, let's not forget.

Hitch

There are websites out there for designing math formulas and they can be saved in SVG or MathML. So if the effort is the same to make the formulas and you can then just save them as SVG, would that not be just as easy as dealing with MathML?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

There are websites out there for designing math formulas and they can be saved in SVG or MathML. So if the effort is the same to make the formulas and you can then just save them as SVG, would that not be just as easy as dealing with MathML?

Dahlink, and whom, exactly, is the "you" in this scenario? Which person or party is the schmuck making these oh-so-easy SVGs? And whom is the person stuck coding these mothers inside the ePUB, exactly? (And don't get me STARTED about making the matching jpgs, for KDP backward compatibility....and coding all the fallback stuff.)

You do realize that the people writing this stuff are creating the MathML either in Word (yes, really!!!) or in LaTEX, right? They're not helpfully making these on some random website and then... I mean, I think you're thinking about possible solutions (good on you for that) for problems that don't actually happen in the wild. I'm talking about solutions for files that have thousands of the little bastards in 'em already...

I don't think I've ever had anyone come to me with a file in one hand and a gajillion SVGs in the other...I don't think. Granted, it's been a lotta years, but still, I'm not quite that demented yet...

Hitch

[Turtle91]

I’ve only played with MathML a little bit…

How does it compare to the equivalent svg- as in file size???

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I’ve only played with MathML a little bit…

How does it compare to the equivalent svg- as in file size???

Do you mean the final file size?

I'm not sure I can answer that competently. I am not trying to be difficult, but I don't believe we've ever made a pure MathML file. or pure SVG. Everything we do--everything--has JPG fallbacks (or png or whatever). And those fallback 90-bajillionty-jpgs, even at say, 5-6kb per, add up.

?

H

[rkomar]

It was my impression that MathML would layout the symbols differently depending on the available space, but SVG has a fixed layout. The former is better if you are displaying on different screen sizes and have complicated equations. I think this was the reason MathML was developed in the first place. So, SVG would not be a pure replacement for MathML, at least as far as mathematicians are concerned.

This is in the context of the differences between MathML and SVG. It doesn't address the practicalities of getting something working on various ereaders.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by rkomar

It was my impression that MathML would layout the symbols differently depending on the available space, but SVG has a fixed layout. The former is better if you are displaying on different screen sizes and have complicated equations. I think this was the reason MathML was developed in the first place. So, SVG would not be a pure replacement for MathML, at least as far as mathematicians are concerned.

This is in the context of the differences between MathML and SVG. It doesn't address the practicalities of getting something working on various ereaders.

Yes. MathML is...not SVG. SVG, for all the fancy, is still "just" graphics/images, but MathML, I thought, was "more." ?

Hitch

[salamanderjuice]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Dahlink, and whom, exactly, is the "you" in this scenario? Which person or party is the schmuck making these oh-so-easy SVGs? And whom is the person stuck coding these mothers inside the ePUB, exactly? (And don't get me STARTED about making the matching jpgs, for KDP backward compatibility....and coding all the fallback stuff.)

You do realize that the people writing this stuff are creating the MathML either in Word (yes, really!!!) or in LaTEX, right? They're not helpfully making these on some random website and then... I mean, I think you're thinking about possible solutions (good on you for that) for problems that don't actually happen in the wild. I'm talking about solutions for files that have thousands of the little bastards in 'em already...

I don't think I've ever had anyone come to me with a file in one hand and a gajillion SVGs in the other...I don't think. Granted, it's been a lotta years, but still, I'm not quite that demented yet...

Hitch

There's tools to generate SVG equations from LaTeX. Like this one. Pandoc will also spit out MathML from LaTeX with zero effort into an ePub. I can create better ePubs from my own stuff in 30 seconds than I can buy.

MathML being written in essentially plain text means file sizes are considerably smaller as opposed to images. It's also easier for accessibility as screen readers can be set up to deal with it while SVG or pngs means somebody has to write the proper alt tags for them. While SVG is better than PNG the increased file size from using hundreds of images makes a lot of readers choke in my experience which is well not a great experience. Often the ePub is bigger than the PDF.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by salamanderjuice

There's tools to generate SVG equations from LaTeX. Like this one. Pandoc will also spit out MathML from LaTeX with zero effort into an ePub. I can create better ePubs from my own stuff in 30 seconds than I can buy.

MathML being written in essentially plain text means file sizes are considerably smaller as opposed to images. It's also easier for accessibility as screen readers can be set up to deal with it while SVG or pngs means somebody has to write the proper alt tags for them. While SVG is better than PNG the increased file size from using hundreds of images makes a lot of readers choke in my experience which is well not a great experience. Often the ePub is bigger than the PDF.

Yes, but to get back to reality, in which eBooks sold via Amazon outsell pretty much everything else and nobody wants to pay a small fortune for an eBook that is unsupported, or worse, for which Amazon will give you a KQN (Kindle Quality Notice), the reality is, you can't "only" use MathML. You can't "only" use SVG.

You either use MathML+JPGs or SVG+JPGS. Them's the choices. And that's a whole other thang.

BTW, our experience with Pandoc "spitting out" MathML from LaTEX--yeah, maybe that works for you, on YOUR own work. We get files that are ancient, or using a version of LaTEX from when Fred & Barney were riding Brontosauruses to work and the cruft we get out is fugly. Just saying.

I have yet to see one single laTEX conversion--ever--from some typical walk-in-the-door guy's files that wasn't a goddamned nightmare. It's all well and good if the person using it, is the person who will be making the final file. However, I seem to have a magic ability to attract half-baked college professors that suddenly find themselves without their latest TA or PA or whatever and only know how to do things ONE way and it's invariably the bloody WRONG way.

/rant.

(Sorry, listen, I'm all for someone, some genius, somewhere, coming up with a supported way to do MathML. I really am. But in the meantime...)

Hitch

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But which of the two mentioned Sigil plugins that's removing the NCX should not be doing it. It's a lot easier to remove it manually then to have to add it back.

I know for you it's trivial to make a new NCX. But why is it being removed in the first place?

Using Sigil, it's pretty trivial to add the NCX back. Under Tools => Epub3 Tools, you'll find Generate NCX/Guide for epub2 e-readers and Remove the NCX and Guide.

Since quite a few of the epub3 ebooks I run into either lack a NCX file or have one that is crap, I often click Remove and a second later Generate.

But compared to walking to school in -40° temperatures while wearing lightweight clothing, almost anything seems easy.

[salamanderjuice]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yes, but to get back to reality, in which eBooks sold via Amazon outsell pretty much everything else and nobody wants to pay a small fortune for an eBook that is unsupported, or worse, for which Amazon will give you a KQN (Kindle Quality Notice), the reality is, you can't "only" use MathML. You can't "only" use SVG.

You either use MathML+JPGs or SVG+JPGS. Them's the choices. And that's a whole other thang.

BTW, our experience with Pandoc "spitting out" MathML from LaTEX--yeah, maybe that works for you, on YOUR own work. We get files that are ancient, or using a version of LaTEX from when Fred & Barney were riding Brontosauruses to work and the cruft we get out is fugly. Just saying.

I have yet to see one single laTEX conversion--ever--from some typical walk-in-the-door guy's files that wasn't a goddamned nightmare. It's all well and good if the person using it, is the person who will be making the final file. However, I seem to have a magic ability to attract half-baked college professors that suddenly find themselves without their latest TA or PA or whatever and only know how to do things ONE way and it's invariably the bloody WRONG way.

/rant.

(Sorry, listen, I'm all for someone, some genius, somewhere, coming up with a supported way to do MathML. I really am. But in the meantime...)

Hitch

You wouldn't pay a plumber to turn off the tap would you? You're mainly going to see the non-trivial cases.

I get why MathML is not typically used, but I also never see MathML+JPGs. Too many of my books are just images. I get people want to support whatever Amazon is doing or that Sony reader from 2008 to squeeze out that extra sale but ideally ePub stores and creators would provide multiple options, a MathML version where it works, a SVG version and a crusty PNG version. Instead I get one version that is 10x larger and slower to use than a comparable PDF even though my device supports the latest features.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by salamanderjuice

You wouldn't pay a plumber to turn off the tap would you? You're mainly going to see the non-trivial cases.

I get why MathML is not typically used, but I also never see MathML+JPGs. Too many of my books are just images. I get people want to support whatever Amazon is doing or that Sony reader from 2008 to squeeze out that extra sale but ideally ePub stores and creators would provide multiple options, a MathML version where it works, a SVG version and a crusty PNG version. Instead I get one version that is 10x larger and slower to use than a comparable PDF even though my device supports the latest features.

Sure--I get and respect that. Hell, I wish that they'd pay us to make 3 versions, too. Sadly, those cheap bastards who have to actually make the book PAY for their publishing efforts, don't want to pay us to make 3 versions that won't increase their sales. Silly greedy buggers. /s

Hitch

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I know for you it's trivial to make a new NCX. But why is it being removed in the first place?

To piss you off.

Just once, I'd like to see an epub3 thread that could exist without your annoying (not to mention predictable) and pointless interference. Give it a rest already. The deceased horse has been thoroughly flogged.