Amazon against the rest, or where to get your books

[Nyssa]

I've purchased or downloaded 892 books from Amazon. No problems (other than authors needing better proofreaders).

[emellaich]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

where is that any different than Sony and their LRF format?

It's not meant to be any different from anyone else, nor is it an anti-Amazon comment. I did say that I bought most of my books from them. The point was just that we can't count on Amazon, or anyone else, to indefinitely retain their support for mobi.

Out of curiosity, how did Sony handle the LRF conversion? If you had a previous book in LRF did you have to re-buy it in ePub? And please note that, even if they made it available in the new format this is not a pro-Sony comment. I'm just curious what they did.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by emellaich

It's not meant to be any different from anyone else, nor is it an anti-Amazon comment. I did say that I bought most of my books from them. The point was just that we can't count on Amazon, or anyone else, to indefinitely retain their support for mobi.

Out of curiosity, how did Sony handle the LRF conversion? If you had a previous book in LRF did you have to re-buy it in ePub? And please note that, even if they made it available in the new format this is not a pro-Sony comment. I'm just curious what they did.

From this post:

Originally Posted by Mark Nord

.lrx is DRM'ed BBeB the genuine Sony format, now abandoned, and can be redownloaded as epub

But that is IF your account is still open - and Sonys store never closed. Not sure why Amazon closed the store, if it was legal issues it might have been the reason they did not offer to redownload. Customer Support nowadays says otherwise - and the 7 day return policy of Amazon is unmatched AFAIK.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by emellaich

I am reasonably comfortable with Amazon and buy many books from them. However, to set the record straight for some of the newer folks, in the ebook world: amazon has already abandoned one ebook format . They used to be in the market with a format before Mobi. Then they closed down their ebook store, and took a hiatus for a while.

Well, sort of.

Amazon used to sell books in the MS .lit format, readable on the MS reader software. At some point, they stopped selling e-books in this format. But all of the books remained as readable as they ever were. Amazon had nothing to do with their DRM.

But this was never Amazon's format, and I'm not sure they the fact that they stopped carrying these books was any different from them not carrying any books.

At least, that's my understanding.

Anyone who bought one of these original Amazon ebooks, would have to rebuy it in Kindle format today.

Why? The book is just as readable as it ever was.

[Geramita]

I just bought a book from Amazon (I had gotten a gift certificate at Xmas) and I bought a cheap one so I could see how the whole business worked. I don't own a Kindle, but rather have a Sony (one of the first ) and hoped to be able to use Calibre to put the book on my Sony e-reader.
I was surprised to find that the book appears in the Kindle Library, but it seems as if I have no way to download anything from there to my computer. I don't know how to strip the DRM from a file, but I can find out, however, I don't even know where the file is? Has anyone else had this experience?

I'm not a computer geek, in general, but I can learn things! Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Geramita

I don't know how to strip the DRM from a file, but I can find out, however, I don't even know where the file is? Has anyone else had this experience?

I'm not a computer geek, in general, but I can learn things! Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Google "Apprentice Alf". That will explain all your questions. If that is too technical/geeky, you have to ask a friend to explain. Nobody here can and will.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

And where is that any different than Sony and their LRF format?

While it is not any different, saying that Amazon can abandon a format because Sony did it too, is not a good argument. Or, are you one of the people who says "But they were doing it too!" when you are caught at breaking the speed limit?

Where do you get the idea that they are not the standard? Based on number of ebooks sold? Certainly not. Based on number of dedicated ereader/epaper devices that support mobi vs. epub? NO. Ok argueably, there is more different devices out there from different companies, but they don't make up in number what the Kindles out there have. Based on total number of devices that can read mobi vs. epub? NO. With Kindle for: android, PC, Mac, iPad there is not a whole lot non-dedicated reading devices out there that support epub and not mobi.
Or even that they are alone? NO

All of that, in my honest opinion, does not make any difference. Yes, Amazon is as big as all of the others, they sell more, and there is more stuff available for the Kindle, in AZW / Mobi format than any other platform. That is quite true. But even that does not make them the standard, because everybody else is using something different, and all those other "everybodies" are compatible. (After stripping the DRM out of the files.) The Kindle interoperates with no one, if you don't convert the files first.

Amazon's AZW / Mobi format is a standard *beside* EPUB, because Amazon is big enough to maintain it, but as more and more ereader manufacturers, publishers and stores are coming into the market, I think that the epub standard will get bigger and bigger, with more and more devices, stores and publishers to choose from. Amazon probably will not be able to grow as fast as all the others combined.

Therefore, the Kindle is not the default standard at this moment, in my honest opinion. They would be, if they own more than 90% of the market, as Microsoft does with Windows. Then they'd be the default by sheer force and domination, but even Amazon is not that big (yet). Presently, they are "only" big enough to provide a counterweight against EPUB; I think that, someday in the future, the scale *will* tip toward EPUB (or one of it's successors), making it the only relevant standard.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

B&N and Adobe can't mess with their setup nearly as easily, as it's been licensed to other device makers and thus harder to make more arbitrary changes to.

Methinks you put too much faith in epub's annointment as a "standard".

Look at how Apple and Kobo mess with epub and get away with it.
Amazon messes with epub, calls it KF8, and gets away with it.
Apple isn't even pretending they intend to go their own way; their new format name is .ibook, not epub, even though it *is* epub, messed with.

epub is *not* a standard; it is a spec.
And it is a spec with no enforcement power behind it, to boot.
If you look at the history of epub (and oeb before it) epub is at heart a *publisher* workflow format not a consumer product. What people tend to think of as the "epub standard" is actually an Adobe-proprietary product.

Believe as you will, about the value of epub as a "standard", but don't be surprised if by this time next year, the current four-way DRM splintering of epub becomes a five-way forking of the internal plumbing.

[Katsunami]

fjtorres: If that is true and everybody just takes the spec and implements it in his own, non-compatible way, causing epub to fork into several different formats, then at that point I *will* sell my ereader *again*, and stay with paper books forever.

Ereaders can only work when all publishers and hardware vendors stick to the same standard, or we're going to get the same mess as we had with internet browsers, with every software maker doing different things, leaving the web developer to code for 25 different browsers (and versions).

I *hope* that the world of e-publishing learns from that disaster. It took 15 years to (almost) solve it.

[Ken Maltby]

The forces "splintering" epub are those trying to create a captured market, not the
authors or publishers. Aside from those who get themselves trapped into exclusive deals,
the authors and publishers are in a position to offer their product outside of the DRM
walled gardens. And they do now, for the most part. As we all know it is not so hard to
free your purchases from any DRM (except Sony's), so this is not a problem you can lay
on the EPUB format itself.

Luck;
Ken

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

While it is not any different, saying that Amazon can abandon a format because Sony did it too, is not a good argument. Or, are you one of the people who says "But they were doing it too!" when you are caught at breaking the speed limit?

You can accidentally throw an out-of-print pbook in the toilet, rip it, lose it. Don't assume that your current ebooks are beeing able to be used on future devices in 2, 5, 10 years. It is very nice today that you can buy a ebook and have multiple copies of it on different devices. You should be thankful for it - they just as well could make you rebuy all your books (and not just Amazon) if you get a new device.

But even that does not make them the standard, because everybody else is using something different, and all those other "everybodies" are compatible after stripping the DRM out of the files. The Kindle interoperates with no one, if you don't convert the files first.

I am sorry, but you contradict yourself there. Compatible after DRM-removal which in itself is a conversion whether you like it or not makes them non-interoperatable before. Legally you cannot strip the DRM in every part of the world anyway. What I described also works for 100% legal stuff, not even including grey-areas (removing of DRM is a grey area).

Amazon's AZW / Mobi format is a standard *beside* EPUB, because Amazon is big enough to maintain it, but as more and more ereader manufacturers, publishers and stores are coming into the market, I think that the epub standard will get bigger and bigger, with more and more devices, stores and publishers to choose from.

Again, variety does not make epub bigger, it even hurts as there is more things that all need to stay compatible with each other. As you state Amazon is big enough to maintain [the mobi format]. Epub is split up, and it does not look like it is going to get any better.

They would be, if they own more than 90% of the market

To be honest, they will never allow that to happen. Amazon will make for 100% sure that they won't get nailed for breaking monopoly-laws.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

The forces "splintering" epub are those trying to create a captured market, not the
authors or publishers. Aside from those who get themselves trapped into exclusive deals,
the authors and publishers are in a position to offer their product outside of the DRM
walled gardens. And they do now, for the most part. As we all know it is not so hard to
free your purchases from any DRM (except Sony's), so this is not a problem you can lay
on the EPUB format itself.

Luck;
Ken

Thank you, well said. It deserves to be in here twice. Here we go:

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

The forces "splintering" epub are those trying to create a captured market, not the
authors or publishers. Aside from those who get themselves trapped into exclusive deals,
the authors and publishers are in a position to offer their product outside of the DRM
walled gardens. And they do now, for the most part. As we all know it is not so hard to
free your purchases from any DRM (except Sony's), so this is not a problem you can lay
on the EPUB format itself.

Luck;
Ken

[Synamon]

We get it, you don't like Amazon. But pretending that the epub eReader companies don't lock in users is disingenuous. Removing DRM isn't trivial and is beyond the scope of what most people purchasing books want to mess with. If you are able to strip DRM, then converting formats is not a big deal.

Since an average user is going to be locked in, Amazon's ecosystem is the best choice, especially in the US where you get extra perks like special offers, lending ebooks, and library borrowing. Navigating the various sites selling epubs with different DRM schemes is beyond the average user, they are likely to end up purchasing books they can't even read on their device.

[carld]

I mostly buy my books from Amazon, it's quick convenient and the prices are as good as I'm likely to find anywhere. I'm not really worried about them suddenly going away and leaving me without the ability to get to my books, barring some world-wide calamity.

As far as I know no-one has studied it, but I'd bet that Amazon's selection is better than all the ePub sellers put together (counting only those who have interoperable DRM).

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Synamon

We get it, you don't like Amazon. But pretending that the epub eReader companies don't lock in users is disingenuous. Removing DRM isn't trivial and is beyond the scope of what most people purchasing books want to mess with. If you are able to strip DRM, then converting formats is not a big deal.

Since an average user is going to be locked in, Amazon's ecosystem is the best choice, especially in the US where you get extra perks like special offers, lending ebooks, and library borrowing. Navigating the various sites selling epubs with different DRM schemes is beyond the average user, they are likely to end up purchasing books they can't even read on their device.

I think that this is not meant to be as a comment on my opening post?

I never said that I don't like Amazon or that stripping DRM is trivial; I actually do like Amazon (as far as I had to deal with the German and British branches), and stripping DRM certainly is not trivial for most people. I also don't pretend that the EPUB vendor's are *not* trying to lock you into their system. The only thing I am stating is that, after removing any DRM-restrictions, EPUB is (or should be) compatible to more devices than Amazon's format.

I am just trying to be as careful as possible, to try and keep all options open, to be able to move to any ereader in the future, be it Amazon's or someone else's.

With regard to choosing a party if you are going to be in a lock-in anyway, then indeed Amaon is probably one of the better ones to go for.

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

The forces "splintering" epub are those trying to create a captured market, not the
authors or publishers. Aside from those who get themselves trapped into exclusive deals,
the authors and publishers are in a position to offer their product outside of the DRM
walled gardens. And they do now, for the most part. As we all know it is not so hard to
free your purchases from any DRM (except Sony's), so this is not a problem you can lay
on the EPUB format itself.

Luck;
Ken

Of course it's not a problem of EPUB in itself; it is a problem of companies not wishing to learn. Take an example at GoG.com (a company that sells "Good old Games", but also some new ones). They don't have *any* DRM at all. They just give you the game, after you pay for it, along with the soundtrack in high-quality MP3, concept artwork, downloadable maps and manuals, game guides, and they even patch the stuff for you, up to the latest versions. They even sandbox old DOS games into DOSBox to run on new Windows-versions, configure everything for you, and they add patches to make games run on new Windows-versions that would otherwise not run at all. And what do they do, instead of DRM?

- They set prices very low, starting at $2.99. Many games are lower than $9,99, series are often bundled in an $9.99 package.
- They often have deals to get stuff even cheaper if you buy multiple games at once.
- They provide absolutely *no restrictions*. They even say that you are allowed to install the game on any and all computers that you own. No CD-Checks, no activation, no nothing.
- They provide great customer service.

The only thing they do is say this: "Please don't copy that game for your friends, OK? Just point them to our website. Thank you."

And what is the result? They sell those 5-20 year old games *by the frikkin' millions*! Some time ago, they had a deal that lasted only 24 hours (one free game, and many heavily discounted) after they sold the 6th millionth game. They put up a ticker on the site when they were around 5.8 million or so, and I've seen it shoot up by 1-3 games *per second*.

So, earning a lot of money without DRM, and without trying to lock people into your own system by using DRM or a specific format (or both) is very well possible. Sell something the people want, and sell it at a good price, and they will buy. Annoy them with DRM and "counter piracy measures", and they will start to do precisely the things you didn't want them to do and designed all those "protections" for.

Some indie artists even gave away an album at their website, stating: "Please leave a donation for this album. You can give whatever you wish... or nothing, if you so desire." Those artists stated that they earned much more money in a week then they ever had by going through a publishing company, with all of their "protections, schemes, and rules".

I hope some companies learn from that.