<i>, <em> or <span> for italics ?

[bookman156]

If the only remaining use for the <i> tag is the names of ships, then we may as well change our style for naming ships to roman.

[Jellby]

You should use <span class="ship">, <span xml:lang="fr">, etc.

[bookman156]

You should use <span class="ship">

Yeah, of course, that makes sense. I don't name ships often.

[bookman156]

<span xml:lang="fr">

So you'd add a class to that to get your words italic. In what contexts does declaring the spanned phrase as French help?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by bookman156

That one's often flagged up to use only in a legal context as some tend to misunderstand the meaning. But why wouldn't a barrister then use that phrase? It's from Latin after all. (Or, you mean they wouldn't get it wrong then. No, I guess not.)

B-bu-but, it's not only in a legal context. Gadzooks!

In that time period, a barrister had, presumably, trained in debate at the very least. In no universe would he mistakenly use "begs the question" to mean asks the question. It's unique to debating--and legal arguments (!!!)--and thus, essential to his core being. (I say his confidently, given the time period.)

At this point (she said, exasperated), I guess I should be grateful that they're not saying "beggars the question." (BLERGH! Talk about mooshing and bastardizing...)

My favourite pet hate is 'centres around'/'centers around'. You can't centre around, you can only centre on. BBC News gets this wrong all the time.

I hate to admit, I've been guilty of centering "around." (Although I believe--or perhaps I'd just like to believe--that I mostly use "on.") It's an abuse and a bastardization and I should flog myself. One of the downsides to running your own biz and doing so without a lot of other folks around is that you start to get sloppy in your speech and writing. (And on the Net...well. How often do you get to have a decently intelligent conversation like this one? Not bloody often.)

Hitch

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by bookman156

So you'd add a class to that to get your words italic. In what contexts does declaring the spanned phrase as French help?

I don't recall right now if you can style xml:lang="fr" directly or you'd need a class (if you want it italic or whatever). As for the language tag itself, it helps (or could help, if properly implemented) in text-to-speech, hyphenation, dictionary lookups...

[bookman156]

B-bu-but, it's not only in a legal context. Gadzooks!

Of course, I wouldn't follow that recommendation, but nonetheless it's what Godfrey Howard in The Macmillan Good English Handbook recommends. Most of his other recommendations are pretty good though.

[bookman156]

"beggars the question."

That presumably is a mix-up with 'beggars belief'. Can't say as I've seen it used much.

[bookman156]

I hate to admit, I've been guilty of centering "around."

I bet you won't be guilty of it any more. I had this one pointed out to me by the Chief Sub-editor of The Sun and I've never got it wrong since.

[bookman156]

Another favourite is the difference between 'the past ten years' and 'the last ten years'. This was pointed out to me by the managing editor of another newspaper when I got it wrong, who drew a timeline of ten years on a scrap of paper and then a doodle of a nuclear explosion. 'That's the last ten years,' she said.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by bookman156

Of course, I wouldn't follow that recommendation, but nonetheless it's what Godfrey Howard in The Macmillan Good English Handbook recommends. Most of his other recommendations are pretty good though.

Okay, fair 'nuff. I'm sure Howard meant well. (LOL) As a former debater, dammit, I am unwilling to give up my "begs..."

Originally Posted by bookman156

That presumably is a mix-up with 'beggars belief'. Can't say as I've seen it used much.

YES and to me, it beggars belief that it's been conflated, merged and mooshed.

Originally Posted by bookman156

I bet you won't be guilty of it any more. I had this one pointed out to me by the Chief Sub-editor of The Sun and I've never got it wrong since.

You know the one that still stings me, to this day? Penultimate. I was called out on that, more years ago than I'd like to admit to, and sure 'nuff, I have to bite my tongue not to say something to folks today when they use it to me "most ultimate" (and don't say it! No modifiers, I know. I mean, that's wrong in two ways...)

Originally Posted by bookman156

Another favourite is the difference between 'the past ten years' and 'the last ten years'. This was pointed out to me by the managing editor of another newspaper when I got it wrong, who drew a timeline of ten years on a scrap of paper and then a doodle of a nuclear explosion. 'That's the last ten years,' she said.

YES that's one of my faves, too. Oh, damn there was something that was buzzing 'round in my noggin the other day...that's been irking me lately with newscasters. Hmph. It will come to me.

Hitch

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by bookman156

So you'd add a class to that to get your words italic. In what contexts does declaring the spanned phrase as French help?

Proper HTML lang markup helps with:

• Dictionary
  
  • Highlighting the French word, a device may pop up a French->English dictionary instead.
    
• Translation
  
  • French->English translate may occur.
    
• Text-to-Speech (TTS)
  
  • Can speak in the correct accent/model.
    
• Hyphenation
  
  • Different languages have completely different hyphenation rules.
    
• Spellchecking
  
  • Red squigglies.
    

Current, real-life use-cases?

• Dictionary
  
  • Press-and-hold on a French word, get the French->English dictionary.
    
  • Press-and-hold on an English word, get the English dictionary.
    
• Translation
  
  • EPUB readers, such as PocketBook, have in-line translation.
    
    • Similar to Google Translate on a website, PocketBook can translate and substitute, on-the-fly, the converted-to-English words.
      
• Text-to-Speech
  
  • EPUB readers such as Thorium are able to take advantage of this. (Along with Screen Readers.)
    
    • French will be spoken by French TTS, English will be spoken by English TTS.
      
• Hyphenation
  
  • While most programs only handle language at the document-/book-level, Kindles (KFX format) can currently go down to per-word.
    
  • LaTeX/Word/LibreOffice can also take full advantage of this.
    
• Spellchecking
  
  • Way less red squigglies!
    
  • If you Right-Click a misspelled word, you may get more accurate recommendations.
    
  • Sigil/Calibre have the fantastic Spellcheck Lists. (Sortable, searchable lists of all words in the book + their language.)
    
  • Word/LibreOffice can also take advantage of this.
    

I've written about each of these things extensively. Most recently, see 2021: "Add xml:lang to ePub".

There are always new tools/updates happening. Things have gotten MUCH better on each of these fronts, even within the past few years.

(For example, because of my consistent nudging since 2016, Multi-Language Spellchecking is now a thing in both Sigil/Calibre.)

If you marked your HTML languages properly, boom, you automatically benefit from each of these enhancements as they come along.

[bookman156]

Cheers Tex2002ans, that's really interesting. I particularly like the idea of getting a French dictionary for French words, that's pretty cool.

I've never actually thought about tagging foreign phrases in English text before. I do a lot of stuff with traditional Chinese, I may well build that in, it's interesting.

This page just has:

lang="fr"

https://www.w3.org/International/que...e-declarations

You have:

lang="de" xml:lang="de"

What's the difference, if any? Is it best to just have both all the time?

And just to confirm, you'd need to add a span class to get say French into italic? Or can you directly style the language declaration?

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by bookman156

Cheers Tex2002ans, that's really interesting. I particularly like the idea of getting a French dictionary for French words, that's pretty cool.

Originally Posted by bookman156

What's the difference, if any? Is it best to just have both all the time?

Use both all the time.

I described the reasons why in 2021: "Search and Replace" (Post #11).

• HTML = lang
• XHTML (or XML) = xml:lang

Most programs recognize both types, but there may be tools out there that only support 1 of the 2.

Originally Posted by bookman156

I've never actually thought about tagging foreign phrases in English text before. I do a lot of stuff with traditional Chinese, I may well build that in, it's interesting.

Fantastic. Your life is a hell of a lot easier then!

Finding "foreign words" in alternate alphabets (like Greek/Chinese/Japanese) is much easier because you can use Spellcheck Lists + Reports—after you sort all words alphabetically, the Chinese words pop right out!

See my amazing mini-tutorial in:

• 2021: "Japanese characters not showing up on some devices"

and my topic where I described all the ins/outs:

• 2020: "Should Chinese Fonts be Embedded in Ebooks?"

Finding all the French in an English book is pretty painstaking, because they both use the Latin alphabet... but tagging all Chinese? Easy peasy. (Or should I say "easier peasier"?)

Originally Posted by bookman156

And just to confirm, you'd need to add a span class to get say French into italic? Or can you directly style the language declaration?

Use:

<i class="french" lang="fr" xml:lang="fr">

The class is optional, but allows you to easily use basic CSS (which will work on everything):

i.french {
	font-color: red;
}

With advanced CSS selectors, you're able to choose based on languages:

i:lang(fr) {
	font-color: red;
}

but support for that across devices/ebooks might not be the best.

(For more info, see MDN article on ":lang()".)

* * *

Anyway, this thread should really stick to discussion on Italics/Emphasis.

If you want more info on HTML lang, read all those previous linked topics (and then create a separate, new thread, so it'll be infinitely easier to find in the future).

[bookman156]

Fantastic, that's useful.

By the way, if you set Chinese with English in books with InDesign here's a fantastic technique that's good to know about. It automatically finds the Chinese and puts it in your desired Chinese font using GREP (I prefer 'Noto Sans CJK TC' for traditional Chinese):

https://www.scammell.co.uk/2012/04/2...dobe-indesign/