Italics and Bold

Karellen · 12-20-2021, 08:38 PM

Not sure how accurate my info is but...

I have read that the tags  and <bold></bold> are deprecated and  and  are the preferred tags to use for italics and bold.

If that is correct, then in the Calibre toolbar in the image below, the I and B buttons still use the old tags. Same for ctrl-i and ctrl-b. Is there any way to change the buttons to use the preferred tags?

DNSB · 12-20-2021, 10:38 PM

Why do people keep posting on that topic? Is the Google-fu running weak?

I remember , , & being discussed to death a decade back. See Italic or Emphasis from June, 2011 for example.

For later examples, check Extended <head> chapter: NOT necessary? from 2017 or the , or for italics? thread from 2020. In the latter two, pay special attention to @Tex2002ans' posts.

Quoth · 12-21-2021, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karellen

Not sure how accurate my info is but...

I have read that the tags  and <bold></bold> are deprecated and  and  are the preferred tags to use for italics and bold.

They were depreciated and then un-depreciated. It's a philosophical/political thing that some claim is about accessibility. I create ebooks in Calibre from docx input. The wordprocessor never outputs em and strong, it only results in and . There can be associated CSS, and then in the CSS the class used with i or b can perversely use em and strong if you want!

Tex2002ans · 12-21-2021, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karellen

Not sure how accurate my info is but...

I have read that the tags  and <bold></bold> are deprecated and  and  are the preferred tags to use for italics and bold.

That's old info.

HTML4 (wrongly) deprecated + , but HTML5 reintroduced them.

Now all 4 have their uses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

For later examples, check Extended <head> chapter: NOT necessary? from 2017 or the , or for italics? thread from 2020. In the latter two, pay special attention to @Tex2002ans' posts.

Here's the basic difference:

Italics vs. Emphasis 

Code:

In <i>Example Book Title</i>, Tex said: "I am the <em>greatest</em>."

The answer, <em>obviously</em>, is <i>ipso facto</i>.

The answer to <i>x</i> + 2 = 5 is <i>x</i> = 3.

is easy. You use that for emphasizing words.

 is used when the text itself is italics, for presentational reasons. Things like:

Book Titles
Ship names
"Foreign" words/terms
Math variables (x, y, z, ...)

Bold vs. Strong 

Similar case with these (although these are a little odder).

An easy example is things like transcripts:

Code:

<b>Person A:</b> Is this what you meant?

<b>Person B:</b> Yes. That is what I said.

<b>A:</b> Are you sure?

<b>B:</b> You're goddamn right I'm sure!

Sometimes the person's name is formatted bold. Any special reason why it's bold? Nope. That's just the common transcript formatting.

Where is more like a "WARNING!" or "IMPORTANT!" or "strong emphasis"-type thing:

Code:

The sign said: <strong>Do not feed the monkeys!</strong>

Anyway, read through those 2 threads DNSB linked to. I go into extreme detail + give examples on all the differences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

It's a philosophical/political thing that some claim is about accessibility.

It is about Accessibility + the broader ecosystem (Internationalization).

Remember, websites/ebooks can be read in alternate means like Text-to-Speech or Google Translate.

Text-to-Speech (TTS)

This can treat/speak vs. differently:

If you correctly used :

"As Tex wrote in Example Book Title... the USS Cole was far from home."

If you wrongly used , it might say these louder:

"As Tex wrote in EXAMPLE BOOK TITLE... the USS COLE was far from home."

Someone listening to the book would notice the difference.

But someone visually reading "the surface-level" wouldn't notice anything different... because "they both look italics" to them!

Auto-Translation

Many languages don't have such a thing as "italics"... and they represent emphasis differently.

For example, emphasis in:

Arabic
- extra lines above/below, different fonts, or extra stretched-out lettering.
Hebrew
- bolder, underline, or larger gaps between letters (letter-spacing).
Chinese/Japanese/Korean
- extra dots/symbols around characters.

Imagine you were a Japanese reader, and after an English->Japanese translate, every single word in your book titles had extra emphasis dots placed on it. That's not correct.

- - -

Side Note: For extra info on emphasis in other languages, I just ran across this great talk:

TYPO Labs 2017: "Liron Lavi Turkenich | Go bolder, just slant it—secondary styles in Hebrew"

She mostly shows examples of Hebrew, but she also quickly skims over Cyrillic (Russian) + Hangul (Korean).

Side Note #2: Remember:

European-based languages tend to have an italics font + emphasis as italics... but the rest of the world doesn't.

And it's only by a quirk of history that both italics/emphasis look the same (in English).

Not all languages are like that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

I create ebooks in Calibre from docx input. The wordprocessor never outputs em and strong, it only results in and . There can be associated CSS, and then in the CSS the class used with i or b can perversely use em and strong if you want!

It depends on what tools you are using.

Like I explained in those linked threads:

Almost all tools output all one OR all the other. (100% / vs. 100% /.)

Better ones like Toxaris's "EPUBTools" (or DAISY's "WordToEPUB") let you at least choose the option.

But there are some tools that can carry over all your properly marked + , although these are extremely rare.

Side Note: And 99.9% of people don't even mark up their documents that detailed+correctly in the first place... just like most people not knowing how to use Styles or marking the proper language.

If you correctly mark up your documents while producing them though, you can map everything to vs. as needed.

(And there will be tools to help speed up this process in the future!)

lomkiri · 12-21-2021, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Here's the basic difference:

Very interesting, and quite logical. Thank you for this point of view !

Karellen · 12-22-2021, 01:34 AM

Thank you @Quoth and especially @Tex2002ans for your detailed and current answer.

Yes, looks like my info was wrong as I read it had been deprecated, but not been aware it had been un-deprecated. So no need to change the actions of those two italic and bold buttons on the toolbar.

12-20-2021, 08:38 PM	#1
Karellen Wizard Posts: 1,367 Karma: 6794938 Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Libra 2	Italics and Bold Not sure how accurate my info is but... I have read that the tags <i></i> and <bold></bold> are deprecated and <em></em> and <strong></strong> are the preferred tags to use for italics and bold. If that is correct, then in the Calibre toolbar in the image below, the I and B buttons still use the old tags. Same for ctrl-i and ctrl-b. Is there any way to change the buttons to use the preferred tags? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Karellen; 12-20-2021 at 09:40 PM.

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12-20-2021, 10:38 PM	#2
DNSB Bibliophagist Posts: 40,647 Karma: 157444382 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Vancouver Device: Kobo Sage, Libra Colour, Lenovo M8 FHD, Paperwhite 4, Tolino epos	Why do people keep posting on that topic? Is the Google-fu running weak? I remember <i>, <b>, <em> & <strong> being discussed to death a decade back. See Italic or Emphasis from June, 2011 for example. For later examples, check Extended <head> chapter: NOT necessary? from 2017 or the <i>, <em> or <span> for italics? thread from 2020. In the latter two, pay special attention to @Tex2002ans' posts.

12-22-2021, 01:34 AM	#6
Karellen Wizard Posts: 1,367 Karma: 6794938 Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Libra 2	Thank you @Quoth and especially @Tex2002ans for your detailed and current answer. Yes, looks like my info was wrong as I read it had been deprecated, but not been aware it had been un-deprecated. So no need to change the actions of those two italic and bold buttons on the toolbar.