People who want no DRM are impractical dreamers...

[stonetools]

DRM does not do anything for someone who's bought an ebook.

But it does apparently do something for writers and publishers . THAT is why the vast majority of writers and publushers still insist on them. And I haven't really heard a serious, detailed answer to the question I posed above. Maybe you can help with that. Apparently answering that question isn't that easy, compared to say, challenging my analogies.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Grandma who just bought a Kindle understands that she can buy books in seconds from Amazon. She's perfectly happy with that and does not know- or even want to know-about sideloading, backing your library up to a computer, transferring ebooks between devices, Calibre, etc, etc.

Quite true. And most people won't be bothered at all by DRM on ebooks.

Until one day they find that the retailer or DRM-provider has moved on to a new system, and they can no longer open their ebooks on new devices.

People with DRMed PDFs have already had this happen to them. Adobe, the DRM provider, is still around, but no longer supports the DRM on their PDFs. There was a six month window in which they could have updated their PDFs to the new scheme, but now that's passed, Adobe says "tough".

Using DRM on ebooks is a storing up a lot of customer problems for the future.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by stonetools

BUt it does apparently do something for writers and publishers . THat is why the vast majority of writers and publushers still insist on them. And I haven't really heard a serious, detailed answer to the question I posed above. Maybe you can help with that. Apparently answering that question isn't that easy, compared to say, challenging my analogies.

I don't believe that DRM does do anything for writers and publishers. Except cost them $0.22 per book sold, for the Adobe Digital Editions variety.

Obviously publishers (or authors) must believe it does something, but I don't know what.

[stonetools]

Sugar coat it any way you want, they can use any excuse, justificationn, they want about some stupid N10 and other crap. I bought my books, I have the right to transfer them to another reader if I want.

They want to steal my books away from me, and that "ain't" happening. That to me is what DRM really is, their method to control my books and limit me in what I can do with them.

Well, in reality, buying an e book isn't exactly like buying a car, popular misconceptions to the contrary. Sorry you missed that.
I will say that there is a lot publishers can do to mitigate the effects of DRM. One thing could be to provide a path for someone who wants to migrate from one player to another.But they could do that without abolishing DRM altogether.
I must say, that this and many other posts seem to be saying "DRM is an annoyance to me. They should get rid of it and if it means that the livelihods of people in the publishing industry are undermined, well, f**k 'em. "
This is not a winning argument IMO.

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Yet you (and im sure , most people on the forum) still lock your doors. Again, locks WILL stop the casual amatuer. A burglar with a lock pick can easily pick a lock, but then he is a professional-a person who has acquired the special tool and training to break in that way.
Again I think folks on this forum really lose sight of how unaffectedthe average user is by this stuff. Grandma who just bought a Kindle understands that she can buy books in seconds from Amazon. She's perfectly happy with that and does not know- or even want to know-about sideloading, backing your library up to a computer, transferring ebooks between devices, Calibre, etc, etc.
That's a big part of discussions by experts-the ONLY people who are really concerned about DRM

Ummm...I am neither a Grandma (though, I suppose, at 38, that would be mathematically possible). I'm not exactly a techie, either but I'm familiar with using my iPod and iTunes and, after getting my Kobo, was able to get eBooks from Gutenberg, Smashwords, Borders, and one on loan from my library pretty easily using ADE.

I don't know how to strip DRM or find pirated eBooks and I don't WANT to know how to do that and will not. However, I did run into a problem with B&N and DRM which may be a fairly inexpensive $8 lesson about buying an eBook from them I won't be able to read on my Kobo, because of DRM.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Well, in reality, buying an e book isn't exactly like buying a car, popular misconceptions to the contrary. Sorry you missed that.
I will say that there is a lot publishers can do to mitigate the effects of DRM. One thing could be to provide a path for someone who wants to migrate from one player to another.But they could do that without abolishing DRM altogether.
I must say, that this and many other posts seem to be saying "DRM is an annoyance to them. They should get rid of it and if it means that the livelihods of people in the publishing industry are undermined, well, f**k 'em. "
This is not a winning argument IMO.

The thing I believe you are missing is that pretty much no one here but you sees the connection between abolishing DRM and undermining the livelihoods of those in the publishing industry.

Since DRM does nothing to reduce piracy, abolishing it isn't going to increase piracy. That being the case, the presence or absence of DRM will have very little if any impact on the livelihood of anyone not in the DRM business.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Yet you (and im sure , most people on the forum) still lock your doors. Again, locks WILL stop the casual amatuer.

That casual amateur has to have larceny in his heart, or he's not even going to try the door to find out if it's locked. I live in the big city, I have once or twice been in such a rush that I have forgotten to lock my door and left for the day, and come home to discover ... everything just as I left it. Now, if there had been thieves roaming the neighborhood, they presumably would have been prepared to sneak in whether the door was locked or not. My unlocked door would've saved them a few minutes of time and trouble, but my place would still have been burglarized.

Again I think folks on this forum really lose sight of how unaffectedthe average user is by this stuff. Grandma who just bought a Kindle understands that she can buy books in seconds from Amazon. She's perfectly happy with that and does not know- or even want to know-about sideloading, backing your library up to a computer, transferring ebooks between devices, Calibre, etc, etc.

Average user is unaffected because he or she isn't intending to do anything wrong. Average user is unaffected until DRM prevents him or her from accessing a duly bought and paid for book.

[stonetools]

The thing I believe you are missing is that pretty much no one here but you sees the connection between abolishing DRM and undermining the livelihoods of those in the publishing industry.

And yet apparently the authors and publishers see such a connection. Guess they don't know their own businesses like you lot.

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by Catlady

That casual amateur has to have larceny in his heart, or he's not even going to try the door to find out if it's locked. I live in the big city, I have once or twice been in such a rush that I have forgotten to lock my door and left for the day, and come home to discover ... everything just as I left it. Now, if there had been thieves roaming the neighborhood, they presumably would have been prepared to sneak in whether the door was locked or not. My unlocked door would've saved them a few minutes of time and trouble, but my place would still have been burglarized.



Average user is unaffected because he or she isn't intending to do anything wrong. Average user is unaffected until DRM prevents him or her from accessing a duly bought and paid for book.

This! A couple of times, I left the door to the apt. I had in the Faubourg Marigny neighborhood of New Orleans which does have crime. There were murders only a block or 2 from me, for pete's sake. Guess what, the place was unmolested when I returned. Of course this was during the day and there were bikes stolen from the courtyard at night once. Anyway, I will willingly pay rather than have the hassle and risk of pirating. I just want to be able to shop from anyplace I want to shop from and still have my books if my device goes down.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by Catlady

I don't know--have you actually done the experiment and stood by to watch what people do? My bet is that most people won't have a moral decision because they won't even really see the money--they'll think it's a flyer or a parking ticket or something. Others will notice it and pass by. If one person does take it, what have you proved?

See the money tree experiment.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by stonetools

And yet apparently the authors and publishers see such a connection. Guess they don't know their own businesses like you lot.

Authors and a lot of publishing people do not like DRM at all. Unfortunately non-publisher people that are the bosses in the companies owning the publisher mistakenly think that DRM is needed.

Or they use the safety principle, nobody has been kicked buying IBM...

[HamsterRage]

Originally Posted by stonetools

And yet apparently the authors and publishers see such a connection. Guess they don't know their own businesses like you lot.

I'm not really sure that such condescension really deserves a reply...but what the heck:

1) eBooks are a really, really, really new business and probably and was an almost negligible segment of the market until about the last 6 months, so it would be surprising if anyone had a good idea about how the business works best at this point.

2) The music industry, which is a few years ahead of ebooks in the electronic distribution marketplace, has just about run itself into bankruptcy. Even without speculating about why this has happened, this looks an indication that giant corporations with near limitless resources and power in their industry can jointly screw up by not "knowing" their own business.

3) Personally, I think this argument is moot. In way less than 10 years there won't be a single big publisher left (at least in the ebook marketplace) on the planet to force DRM on either the public or the authors.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by queentess

The music industry hit their peak, and now they're in decline.

Independent music is thriving because there are no barriers left between bands and listeners.

And I don't know about anywhere else, but in the UK traditional music industry profits rose nearly 5% in 2010 over the previous year. Even in America it is still generating a respectable profit.

It seems to be part of American corporation culture to expect profits to continually rise year on year, even in a global recession. So if profits "only" remain stable at $200million people will start to say the industry is doomed and it's all because of piracy.

That's just silly.
http://www.besttechie.net/2008/04/14...-at-the-facts/

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Isn't Wiiware locked to the Wii device itself?

It is, but something like a game you wouldn't expect it to work with your next console purchase anyway. It's not really the same as with music and books where you would expect to be able to take them with you.

[Fayth]

Originally Posted by stonetools

But it does apparently do something for writers and publishers . THAT is why the vast majority of writers and publushers still insist on them. And I haven't really heard a serious, detailed answer to the question I posed above. Maybe you can help with that. Apparently answering that question isn't that easy, compared to say, challenging my analogies.

Maybe you should explain how DRM is doing something for writers and publishers? You criticize those against DRM by saying they think that "somehow" authors will get their money. Well I criticize your argument because you are simply saying "somehow" DRM will help authors. It doesn't. The pirate sites get the books as easily as though there were no DRM.