PNG in KF8 yet?

[AlanHK]

The newest Amazon guidelines say :

9.4.1
KF8 supports GIF, BMP, JPEG, PNG, and Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) images.

Kindlegen 2.9 however converts PNG in epubs to either GIF or JPEG on its whim, bloating the file and (when it makes JPEGs), blurring it. Does the update change that? I'd love to be able to use PNG.
Now I make text images (e.g. title pages), diagrams, most maps, ornaments, as GIF files, so they don't get messed up by Kindlegen.
(I'm avoiding KFX at this time.)

[jhowell]

The documentation states that you can use PNG in the source of your book. It does not say that customers will receive PNG as a result.

Amazon reprocesses images, potentially changing their format, quality, and dimensions. This will vary based on the target device and file format.

[AlanHK]

Originally Posted by jhowell

The documentation states that you can use PNG in the source of your book. It does not say that customers will receive PNG as a result.

Was this scripted by Amazon's legal department?
I cited the documentation that states the KF8 format does support PNG.

Originally Posted by jhowell

Amazon reprocesses images, potentially changing their format, quality, and dimensions.

I want to know if I can actually make a KF8 file, using the PNGs Amazon states are supported by the format, and not have them "processed" and degraded.

I'm guessing the answer is still "No", but I live in hope.

I have heard that Calibre can do this, but while I'm sure it would work, might not be accepted for upload to Amazon.

Originally Posted by jhowell

This will vary based on the target device and file format.

There are KF7, KF8, KFX, AZK. The files do not "vary"for each device, though how each device displays them may be different. Or am I mistaken?
I don't care about KF7, but the rest should be able to cope with PNG, a format unencumbered by patents invented over 20 years ago.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

There are KF7, KF8, KFX, AZK. The files do not "vary"for each device, though how each device displays them may be different. Or am I mistaken?

Even the same format (eg KF8) can be delivered with different image content based on the reading device/app.

This thread has a discussion of different image content being delivered to customers of the same kindle book.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

Was this scripted by Amazon's legal department?
I cited the documentation that states the KF8 format does support PNG.

Yes, and it's said that since at least 2012. In the 2012.4 documentation:

3.5.1 Image Guideline #1: Use Supported Input Formats
The Kindle platform supports GIF, BMP, JPEG, non-transparent PNG, and Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) images.

Which is pretty much what it says NOW, no??? In fact, unless I'm losing it, 9.4.1 says exactly what 3.5.1 said 6 years ago. :-)

...and, as far as I know, nothing in terms of that has really changed. Although, Alan, we get really good image quality, compared to 2012 or even 2015. Yes, like you, we use PNGs and GIFs as the base image--GIF for line-art and tables, etc., PNGs for pretty much everything else. The image quality of the reprocessing has certainly increased. IMHO, of course.

I want to know if I can actually make a KF8 file, using the PNGs Amazon states are supported by the format, and not have them "processed" and degraded.

I'm guessing the answer is still "No", but I live in hope.

Sorry--unless something's changed in the last two or three days, the answer is "no." I was just discussing this with them, as it happens. I have a client that is having cows over the fact that in Sepia/Night/Green his fleurons and chapter heads have the ubiquitous "white box" behind them. (sigh). I even sent him a Harry Potter, so he could see that even the biggest author in the world has the dreaded White Box. ;-) (not your issue, I know--yours being degradation--but that's why I was on with them.)

I have heard that Calibre can do this, but while I'm sure it would work, might not be accepted for upload to Amazon.

Given that the resulting file would be, at best, reprocessed, during the intake and PW (Publishing Workflow, as Amazon calls it) it's somewhat moot.

There are KF7, KF8, KFX, AZK. The files do not "vary"for each device, though how each device displays them may be different. Or am I mistaken?
I don't care about KF7, but the rest should be able to cope with PNG, a format unencumbered by patents invented over 20 years ago.

They absolutely vary. HD images, non-HD images...two different devices literally get different files. About 4 years ago, there was KF8 and KF7. Now, there are myriad different...flavors, I'd guess I call them...of KF8 delivered to the different devices.

You could try SVG, of course, but that's got its own issues and equally, KF7 doesn't support that at all. Moreover, at the moment, SVG will cause a page-break after each usage, too. Kind of a big PITA, really.

May I ask what type of image you're fighting with? Or examples, or...? I probably can't help, but you never know, someone here might have a helpful idea.

Hitch

[GrannyGrump]

just a suggestion that *small* ornaments (fleurons, etc) can be generated as font glyphs

Create a SVG image, and import into a font editor which is capable of such things ---such as Type 3.2 from CR8 Software Solutions --- Convert to glyph, and add that glyph to an embedded font.

(PS-- you can also copy glyphs from one font to another with this app)


I have done this many times, but of course, I am a hobbyist, and not using KDP.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by GrannyGrump

just a suggestion that *small* ornaments (fleurons, etc) can be generated as font glyphs

Create a SVG image, and import into a font editor which is capable of such things ---such as Type 3.2 from CR8 Software Solutions --- Convert to glyph, and add that glyph to an embedded font.

(PS-- you can also copy glyphs from one font to another with this app)


I have done this many times, but of course, I am a hobbyist, and not using KDP.

Granny:

That would not be a great solution for KDP, as the KF7's can't display embedded fonts, and equally, many KF8 devices (the Paperwhite family) allow the total overriding of embedded fonts, so that the font glyphs would not work at all.

Hitch

[GrannyGrump]

@Hitch, you are right of course. Hobbyists can rush in where pros dare not tread.

I always map my special glyphs to a semi-decorative character (asterisk, tilde, etc), so even if the embedded font is not used, it won't look too awful. But the professional production will be expected to display the decoration, not an asterisk.

[Oxford-eBooks]

Oh bother and heck. Transparent PNGs still not reliably supported in 2022?

This is going to explain the problem I'm getting. I'd always thought that it was working - though to be honest it's hardly been a problem for years with just simple character head images.
I'd "assumed that becuse Amazon said PNG is supported that it would be true" (more fool me!)

What I'm currently finding is that I have a table with shaded backgrounds on alternate rows. There are PNG icons (nicely made with transparent backgrounds). BUT... on the white background lines, SOME of the PNGs have aquired the background colour of the shaded cells!!!

Um, well, SOME of them. In fact if the icon first appers in a cell that has a white background then the image will have a white box throughout, if the icon first appears on a SHADED cell, then all subsequent instances of that image have a shaded box.

... well, that's just lovely.

Just gonna have to drop the alternate shading and face the customer.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Oxford-eBooks

Oh bother and heck. Transparent PNGs still not reliably supported in 2022?

This is going to explain the problem I'm getting. I'd always thought that it was working - though to be honest it's hardly been a problem for years with just simple character head images.
I'd "assumed that becuse Amazon said PNG is supported that it would be true" (more fool me!)

What I'm currently finding is that I have a table with shaded backgrounds on alternate rows. There are PNG icons (nicely made with transparent backgrounds). BUT... on the white background lines, SOME of the PNGs have aquired the background colour of the shaded cells!!!

Um, well, SOME of them. In fact if the icon first appers in a cell that has a white background then the image will have a white box throughout, if the icon first appears on a SHADED cell, then all subsequent instances of that image have a shaded box.

... well, that's just lovely.

Just gonna have to drop the alternate shading and face the customer.

"Supported" has meant, for over a decade, converted to jpg. That's it. Even the Harry Potter Kindle eBooks show the "png" chapter images as white-backgrounded, (as they are jpgs, not pngs or anything else with transparency).

Not sure what that "shading' is--you should see white boxes and nothing else.

Hitch

[Oxford-eBooks]

@hitch: Yeah, lke I said, not really fussed about white boxes on the chapter head and the odd decorative image. (Yes, I saw the comment about Harry Potter - that's a great go-to to tell customers that have problems!)

"shaded" - customer wanted a light tan background colour in alternate table rows. Looks lovely... well, if only they didn't want fancy glyphs for icons in one of the columns which I then had to conver to images for fear of embedded fonts not being reliable.

Interesting though that the converted image background inherits the table cell's background colour from the first instance seen. Surprised that they've gone to the effort of being that 'clever'.

[JSWolf]

Does the Kindle support transparent GIF?

[Oxford-eBooks]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Does the Kindle support transparent GIF?

Pfft... why would they ever do something as useful as that?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Oxford-eBooks

@hitch: Yeah, lke I said, not really fussed about white boxes on the chapter head and the odd decorative image. (Yes, I saw the comment about Harry Potter - that's a great go-to to tell customers that have problems!)

"shaded" - customer wanted a light tan background colour in alternate table rows. Looks lovely... well, if only they didn't want fancy glyphs for icons in one of the columns which I then had to conver to images for fear of embedded fonts not being reliable.

Interesting though that the converted image background inherits the table cell's background colour from the first instance seen. Surprised that they've gone to the effort of being that 'clever'.

Eh, embedded fonts have been pretty reliable for a while, if the glyphs are supported with unicode. If not, of course, if they are out-there swashes and all that, that's another thing altogether and it's a bugger if only a given font has them--then you have big-time issues when the user changes fonts.

On the shading--well...that's doable. Tables are always rough, the choice between the smooth and the not-so. We still use our typical 3-4-columns, not-more-than-10-15 rows "rule of thumb" in deciding which way to go.

Yes, having the HPs does help with fractious customers. At least something does.

Hitch

[Oxford-eBooks]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Eh, embedded fonts have been pretty reliable for a while, if the glyphs are supported with unicode. If not, of course, if they are out-there swashes and all that, that's another thing altogether and it's a bugger if only a given font has them--then you have big-time issues when the user changes fonts.

On the shading--well...that's doable. Tables are always rough, the choice between the smooth and the not-so. We still use our typical 3-4-columns, not-more-than-10-15 rows "rule of thumb" in deciding which way to go.

Yes, having the HPs does help with fractious customers. At least something does.

Hitch

Hmmm.. I thought I saw a thread recently (dont ask me which) where someone said that you can't rely on embedded fonts. Might have been an iOS thing? I've not had problems embedding fonts in the past.

Hilariously: All but ONE of the icons are found in a font that I embedded, but one of them had to be taken from a different font and wouldn't render. Would have gotten away with it ALL if it hadn't been for that one pesky glyph!

Oh, the shaded table rows work just peachy on KP3 not a problem AT ALL.