MacOS ActiveState TCL 8.6.x and Sigil issue

DiapDealer · 11-12-2021, 08:34 AM

Something has changed on the ActiveState side of things. I'm not certain why there's no longer an 8.6.x download for mac.

EDIT: drastic changes at ActiveState apparently. All community editions have been phased out. we'll probably need to update our Sigil documentation for Macs that describe how to get ActiveTcl 8.6.x.

KevinH · 11-12-2021, 11:09 AM

Wow! ActiveState seems to be making even a bigger money grab! So sad ...

I will download and build the latest TCL/TK 8.6.12 from source for macOS and try to wrap an installer around it and either wrap an installer around or try to include it with the embedded python builds somehow. I never understood why Python did not include it like it does for Windows.

DiapDealer · 11-12-2021, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinH

Wow! ActiveState seems to be making even a bigger money grab! So sad ...

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinH

I never understood why Python did not include it like it does for Windows.

If I'm reading stuff right, it seems that Python.org's Python installers might do just that starting with Python 3.9.8 (or 3.10). Might be worth checking out the source for those python versions and see if the ability to build Tk/TCL from source is incorporated into the Mac build process like it is with Windows.

KevinH · 11-12-2021, 01:04 PM

I hope so.

Until then I have grabbed tcl8.6.12 and tk8.6.12 and build static library versions and will try to make the Python 3.8.3 version use those when building its tkinter. I really hate to embed the entire tcl tk framework when it is not really needed.

Let's hope this all goes away in Python 3.9.8.

I will grab the source and take a look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Agreed.

If I'm reading stuff right, it seems that Python.org's Python installers might do just that starting with Python 3.9.8 (or 3.10). Might be worth checking out the source for those python versions and see if the ability to build Tk/TCL from source is incorporated into the Mac build process like it is with Windows.

KevinH · 11-12-2021, 01:27 PM

Well the Tk TCL sources are not part of the Python-3.9.8 source releases and I see nothing in configure or setup.py to actually grab and install them.

That said, according to python.org you see:

Quote:

built-in 8.6.11
As of Python 3.9.1, all current universal2 Python installers for macOS downloadable from python.org supply their own private copies of Tcl/Tk 8.6.11. They do not look for or use any third-party or system copies of Tcl/Tk. This is an Aqua Cocoa Tk.

So it appears they are building their own installer binaries to include it, just *not* providing the steps or source to do so.

DiapDealer · 11-12-2021, 02:01 PM

It's in the 'Mac' folder of the 3.9.8 source. Much like on Windows, the 'build_install.py' script downloads 3rd-party library sources and builds them. From the readme.rst file in the Mac/BuildScript folder:

- builds the following third-party libraries

* OpenSSL 1.1.1
* Tcl/Tk 8.6
* NCurses
* SQLite
* XZ
* libffi

I'm hoping you'll be able apply any necessary patches, then build and install to $DESTROOT

@Doitsu: sorry for the mess, I'll clean up your plugin thread when we're done, here.

KevinH · 11-12-2021, 03:08 PM

Okay, I took a peek at it and did see where it builds tcktk things but it does not apply the required patches to make both xz and openssl work properly back to mac OS 10.12 when built on later macOS versions.

And it hard codes the location of tk tck which makes a completely relocatable Python framework a bit of a stickler to produce.

I am going to have to spend some time recreating how to make a Python 3.9 build that is relocatable (or 3.10).

I should probably do it for whichever version of Python we plan on moving to. Since 3.10.0 just came out, I am thinking 3.9.8 as the next version of Python for the next Sigil build.

Are you okay moving to Python 3.9.8 on Windows? If not, I can try to backport the changes and make a Python 3.8.3 with the latest tk and tcl embedded in it. Or we can update to the latest version of Python 3.8 and try.

Just let me know if 3.9.8, 3.8.3, or 3.8.X would be best for Windows and I will take a stab at building it on macOS.

DiapDealer · 11-12-2021, 03:19 PM

I've built a Windows version of Python 3.9.x and successfully built Sigil with it (I've also used a stock Python.org 3.9.x successfully), but I've not tested it all that heavily for any subtle problems. But sans any huge issues that I might encounter, I've no problem with moving to 3.9.8. The main thing I have to keep in mind for Windows is PyQt/Qt/Python/Python module compatibility. That "magic" intersection where everything will play nice together.

I just have to avoid making Python 3.9.8 any kind of hard minimum, so that I don't leave a bunch of *nix distros in the dust.

DiapDealer · 11-12-2021, 03:24 PM

Windows Python 3.9 will stay compatible with my existing Windows PyQt5/Qt 5.12.x binaries, so that would probably be the path of least resistance for now.

I'm not ready to lose WebEngine support for even more graphics-cards in still-fairly-recent systems by moving to Qt5.15. I understand that move would leave even some relatively new-ish macOS versions in the lurch, no?

EDIT: actually, 3.9.x will put me in a bit of a bind with the PyQt5-sip module. If I can build a compatible version myself, it won't be a problem for my Sigil Windows installers, but it might leave me needing to rethink Windows continuous integration for Sigil a bit.

KevinH · 11-12-2021, 03:59 PM

No problems I can stick with Python 3.8.3 easily enough if necessary. Just let me know.

odamizu · 11-13-2021, 02:42 AM

If I already have ActiveTcl 8.6.9 installed (and also have 8.6.9 installer saved), is it safe to update to macOS Monterey? or is Monterey incompatible with Sigil 1.8.0 and plugins that require ActiveTcl 8.6.x? Thank you

Quote:

Originally Posted by troubledMan

... In the process to move from macOS High Sierra to macOS Monterey, after installed everything needed, so I think, I've found this log when trying to use the [kindlegen] plugin:

Spoiler:

I think it is related with some called Tcl, isn't it? What can I do to resolve this?

Environment:
- macOS 12.0.1
- Sigil 1.8.0 (in default location)
- Kindle Previewer 3.59.1 (in default location)
- KindleGen plugin 0.5.5 (Checked "Use Bundle Python")

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doitsu

You'll need to install ActiveTcl.)

DiapDealer · 11-13-2021, 08:52 AM

I would guess you'd be OK, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. It probably depends on whether the ActiveState installer (or the program it installs) has any "phone home" capabilities. Kevin may have more info on that front (plus I'd recommend deferring to him on all things, MacOS anyway).

DiapDealer · 11-13-2021, 09:11 AM

Also keep in mind that I *think* you could still get (and legally use) the newest versions of Tk/TCL free for personal use (though I don't know how many machines you could activate it for simultaneously). You'd just need to create a free personal account and install it using their Active Platform software to get the latest versions.

KevinH · 11-13-2021, 10:51 AM

It should work just fine.

I always build the latest opensource version of tcl tk and install it via the build process instead of the ActiveState version. It is free to use with no limits. It just does not cone with the ActiveState "extras" but Sigil does not need them anyway.

You could also install tcl and tk via HomeBrew as well.

I am also going to try to build a macOS installer .pkg for the opensource tcl/tk Frameworks and I will post it when I get something working.

Quote:

Originally Posted by odamizu

If I already have ActiveTcl 8.6.9 installed (and also have 8.6.9 installer saved), is it safe to update to macOS Monterey? or is Monterey incompatible with Sigil 1.8.0 and plugins that require ActiveTcl 8.6.x? Thank you

odamizu · 11-14-2021, 02:32 AM

Thank you! I'm still on the fence about updating to Monterey. I'm currently using Catalina.

KevinH, what version macOS do you prefer nowadays, especially for Sigil?

11-12-2021, 08:34 AM	#1
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,045 Karma: 199464182 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	MacOS ActiveState TCL 8.6.x and Sigil issue Something has changed on the ActiveState side of things. I'm not certain why there's no longer an 8.6.x download for mac. EDIT: drastic changes at ActiveState apparently. All community editions have been phased out. we'll probably need to update our Sigil documentation for Macs that describe how to get ActiveTcl 8.6.x. Last edited by DiapDealer; 11-12-2021 at 12:31 PM.

11-12-2021, 02:01 PM	#6
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,045 Karma: 199464182 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	It's in the 'Mac' folder of the 3.9.8 source. Much like on Windows, the 'build_install.py' script downloads 3rd-party library sources and builds them. From the readme.rst file in the Mac/BuildScript folder: - builds the following third-party libraries * OpenSSL 1.1.1 * Tcl/Tk 8.6 * NCurses * SQLite * XZ * libffi I'm hoping you'll be able apply any necessary patches, then build and install to $DESTROOT @Doitsu: sorry for the mess, I'll clean up your plugin thread when we're done, here. Last edited by DiapDealer; 11-12-2021 at 02:06 PM.

11-12-2021, 03:24 PM	#9
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,045 Karma: 199464182 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	Windows Python 3.9 will stay compatible with my existing Windows PyQt5/Qt 5.12.x binaries, so that would probably be the path of least resistance for now. I'm not ready to lose WebEngine support for even more graphics-cards in still-fairly-recent systems by moving to Qt5.15. I understand that move would leave even some relatively new-ish macOS versions in the lurch, no? EDIT: actually, 3.9.x will put me in a bit of a bind with the PyQt5-sip module. If I can build a compatible version myself, it won't be a problem for my Sigil Windows installers, but it might leave me needing to rethink Windows continuous integration for Sigil a bit. Last edited by DiapDealer; 11-12-2021 at 03:46 PM.

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11-12-2021, 11:09 AM	#2
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 8,160 Karma: 5450818 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	Wow! ActiveState seems to be making even a bigger money grab! So sad ... I will download and build the latest TCL/TK 8.6.12 from source for macOS and try to wrap an installer around it and either wrap an installer around or try to include it with the embedded python builds somehow. I never understood why Python did not include it like it does for Windows.

11-12-2021, 03:08 PM	#7
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 8,160 Karma: 5450818 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	Okay, I took a peek at it and did see where it builds tcktk things but it does not apply the required patches to make both xz and openssl work properly back to mac OS 10.12 when built on later macOS versions. And it hard codes the location of tk tck which makes a completely relocatable Python framework a bit of a stickler to produce. I am going to have to spend some time recreating how to make a Python 3.9 build that is relocatable (or 3.10). I should probably do it for whichever version of Python we plan on moving to. Since 3.10.0 just came out, I am thinking 3.9.8 as the next version of Python for the next Sigil build. Are you okay moving to Python 3.9.8 on Windows? If not, I can try to backport the changes and make a Python 3.8.3 with the latest tk and tcl embedded in it. Or we can update to the latest version of Python 3.8 and try. Just let me know if 3.9.8, 3.8.3, or 3.8.X would be best for Windows and I will take a stab at building it on macOS.

11-12-2021, 03:19 PM	#8
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,045 Karma: 199464182 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I've built a Windows version of Python 3.9.x and successfully built Sigil with it (I've also used a stock Python.org 3.9.x successfully), but I've not tested it all that heavily for any subtle problems. But sans any huge issues that I might encounter, I've no problem with moving to 3.9.8. The main thing I have to keep in mind for Windows is PyQt/Qt/Python/Python module compatibility. That "magic" intersection where everything will play nice together. I just have to avoid making Python 3.9.8 any kind of hard minimum, so that I don't leave a bunch of *nix distros in the dust.

11-12-2021, 03:59 PM	#10
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 8,160 Karma: 5450818 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	No problems I can stick with Python 3.8.3 easily enough if necessary. Just let me know.

11-13-2021, 08:52 AM	#12
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,045 Karma: 199464182 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I would guess you'd be OK, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. It probably depends on whether the ActiveState installer (or the program it installs) has any "phone home" capabilities. Kevin may have more info on that front (plus I'd recommend deferring to him on all things, MacOS anyway).

11-13-2021, 09:11 AM	#13
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,045 Karma: 199464182 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	Also keep in mind that I think you could still get (and legally use) the newest versions of Tk/TCL free for personal use (though I don't know how many machines you could activate it for simultaneously). You'd just need to create a free personal account and install it using their Active Platform software to get the latest versions.

11-14-2021, 02:32 AM	#15
odamizu just an egg Posts: 1,697 Karma: 5514284 Join Date: Mar 2015 Device: Kindle, iOS	Thank you! I'm still on the fence about updating to Monterey. I'm currently using Catalina. KevinH, what version macOS do you prefer nowadays, especially for Sigil?

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