What do you think about circumventing geographic restrictions?

[GERGE]

This is loaded topic, and mostly a question of ethics. And before anyone claims that this is illegal, let me tell you that it is not. Circumventing geographic restrictions is just constitutes a breach of contract and a breach of contract isn't the same thing as an illegal act, people always confuse them.

But that is the problem. Is breaching the contract you made with Amazon or Netflix immoral when you do it to circumvent the geographic restrictions? I do it with Amazon, Crunchyroll, Netflix...

And if you think it is immoral, would that stop you?

For me; I believe that it is wrong when the content you are enjoying is locally licensed and available, otherwise there is nothing inherently wrong with it. But I still do it.

PS. The biggest reason I buy my books from Baen, Google Play Books and Kobo is because they sell to me directly. Even if they are pricier than Amazon.

[EowynCarter]

I mostly don't do it.
Not because i feel it's immoral, but out of laziness. Sell to me or I won't buy from you.

The only moment I did that, was when the UK stored closed the door, and it was the only way to buy books in English.

Then kobo showed up, making the effort to deal with geo restrictions properly. I've been buying from them ever since.

[HarryT]

Immoral? No. But you need to be aware that you run the risk of having your account closed if you get caught.

[Lynx-lynx]

Circumventing geo restrictions is openly practiced and government condoned in Australia. In fact the gov't is considering creating legislation to legitimise it.

Go for it!!

[fjtorres]

FWIW:
If somebody doesn't want to sell me something, I'm not going to go to any unusual effort to give them my money.

Plenty of other books (and movies, games, comics, and TV shows) out there from people who do want my business. In the pre-ebook era I would (and did) hunt for reasonably priced used copies of out-of-print books that meant something to me but those days are over. There is no scarcity of quality content.

The limiting factor is my eyeball-hours and my TBR list is thousands deep (thanks to the PD) anyway.

[Geralt]

If people from all over the world can buy paper books from for example bookdepository from England, I see no reason why they should be deprived of buying the same book in ebook form from amazon or anywhere else for that matter. Bookdepository is owned by amazon just to be clear.
Geo restriction is just plain stupid and I say circumvent if you want.

[Geralt]

I would also wager that people who do not want to circumvent are people who are in a better position of finding other material available to them. That's usually people from USA, Canada, or UK.
I would ask you if you'd feel the same way if you were living in some African republic, Eastern Europe, Middle East or China/Korea/Japan or any other asian country, where other choices aren't so readily available but there's often a complete vacuum of available books/movies in English.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Geralt

If people from all over the world can buy paper books from for example bookdepository from England, I see no reason why they should be deprived of buying the same book in ebook form from amazon or anywhere else for that matter. Bookdepository is owned by amazon just to be clear.

1- Geo restrictions are stupid.
2- eBooks aren't sold. They are licensed. What you buy are licenses with strings attached. Even DRM-free ebooks have restrulictions attached to those licenses; some are liberal, some are not.
3- The owner/controller of the copyright decides, for better or worse, how and when and to whom they license their property. It is not up to consumers, politicians, or bureaucrats to decide.

Seriously, why all the angst?
We're drowning in good content, anyway. Both frontlist and backlist.
Will it kill you to do without that one ebook? If it is important enough, why not buy the pbook?

Or, move on: give your money to somebody who wants to do business with you. Plenty of quality ebooks are published without georestrictions these days and they tend to be the best-priced ones, too.

Or, if you are determined to have it your way, over the publisher's intent, just pirate the darn thing and be done with it. Either you respect the IP owner or you don't.

[Geralt]

Shouldn't the owner/controller want to make more money? If it was only up to them and not the laws, I'm sure they would licence to everybody, because after all, where's the money Lebowski? Everywhere.

I also think licencing is stupid. DRM is stupid and geo restriction is stupid.
I have no agnst, Im just pointing out the stupidity. I don't allow my location on this planet to dictate what I will read/watch or how I will educate myself.
If that makes somebody angry, I'll just say deal with it.

I wouldn't be drowning in good content if I didn't care about geo restriction. I would be left to Gutenberg and the like or I would be paying double the prices you pay or I wouldn't be able to buy the ebook at all.

I buy papebooks ofc, but I buy ebooks more. Geo restriction can be worked around in 5 min, it's not a big deal to deal with it, but it is stupid because it doesn't work. Same way DRM doesn't work.

Oh I don't want to pirate but don't worry I do have my way. If I can pay for it and I want it, I will get it. For who knows, maybe publishers if they could, would sell to everyone if not for outdated laws.

[pdurrant]

I think it's usually more trouble than it's worth. But I don't feel any guilt about the times I've done it.

[Barcey]

Georestrictions are a market failure. If I'm willing to give them money for the content and they won't take it then it's not my problem. It's their problem.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by Geralt

If people from all over the world can buy paper books from for example bookdepository from England, I see no reason why they should be deprived of buying the same book in ebook form from amazon or anywhere else for that matter. Bookdepository is owned by amazon just to be clear.
Geo restriction is just plain stupid and I say circumvent if you want.

Apache

[issybird]

Originally Posted by GERGE

For me; I believe that it is wrong when the content you are enjoying is locally licensed and available, otherwise there is nothing inherently wrong with it. But I still do it.

The three elements in this statement apply to me.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Immoral? No. But you need to be aware that you run the risk of having your account closed if you get caught.

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I think it's usually more trouble than it's worth.

These are two reasons I mostly don't do it. There's a lot more riding on my Amazon account than just ebooks. It's not worth the bother of circumventing Amazon's controls, either.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

3- The owner/controller of the copyright decides, for better or worse, how and when and to whom they license their property.

<snip>

If it is important enough, why not buy the pbook?

<snip>

Or, if you are determined to have it your way, over the publisher's intent, just pirate the darn thing and be done with it. Either you respect the IP owner or you don't.

I agree that the owner sets the conditions and frequently I do just buy the pbook. However, I don't think that circumvention and piracy are moral equivalents.

One other factor, when I do circumvent, is that I don't think the gatekeeper (Kobo, natch) is holding up its end of the deal with the owner of the contents. They have no controls at all. Frankly, I think Kobo doesn't want to discourage circumvention, at least not yet - just as they were willing to sell books at a loss for a long time, presumably to get their numbers up/garner market share.

At a minimum, Kobo should be checking location and requiring that the address on the payment method match the "shipping" address on the account. Purveryors who are serious about enforcing georestriction do this. They have an obligation to the rights holder also; it's not the same as saying that leaving your door unlocked is an invitation to thieves.

Finally, I'm calling foul on those who say it's ok to circumvent georestrictions when you buy something, but to do the same thing for a work in the public domain in another country is the darkest depravity. I think it's exactly the same thing - going to the place which legally offers it at the best price.

[JoHunt]

This is what I think about it

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Geralt

Shouldn't the owner/controller want to make more money?

Not. Necessarily.

Harper Lee apparently sat on a finished novel for over 50 years, leaving literally millions on the table.
Stephen King asked his publisher to let his first novel RAGE go out of print over concerns that it resonated with disturbed people in ways that disturbed *him*. It meant taking out of print a very popular omnibus and cost both him and the publisher a lot of money.

Plenty of other writers have walked away from publishing, for a variety of reasons, even though they kept on writing for themselves.

That said, the reason georestrictions exist is that in general they *do* deliver more money to the tradpubbed author and their agent because they sell the rights to the book multiple times.
Remember, in tradpub, authors strive for the highest advances possible, not the highest royalty possible. They value upfront money over longtail revenue and upfront money is why selling the same book five times in five regions is better in their eyes than selling global rights once. And why even indie authors will negotiate tradpub deals for some regions while selfpubbing in their home region.

It may appear to be stupid from the point of view of the reader but that doesn't mean it is actually stupid from the point of view of the author. And as the creator it is up to him to choose how to sell his product. Publishers are *supposed* to know how to best promote a book for the market they serve, to maximize sales in that region and a NY based publisher that barely knows what sells or doesn't sell in Peoria is probably not the best channel to sell a book to Ireland or India or Australia. Or, worse, to markets where English isn't a primary language.

Now, for Indie titles or niche publishers, the equation works differently; *they* do little if any unique marketting for the different regions. Becsuse they have neither the time nor the resources. For them, foreign sales are frosting on the cake. Nice to have if they materialize but they don't count on that money to pay the morgage. Which is why some of those are adopting the hybrid model of selfpubbing in their home market and licensing out regional rights.

Bottom line: don't expect georestrictions to go away soon. Not for tradpub or hybrid authors.