Vista (the next Windows OS) graphics moved out of kernel

[Bob Russell]

I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet, but I don't think you have to be an OS architectural genius to see that this could be a step toward support for mobile devices (and probably embedded devices also).

According to Slashdot, the GUI portion of the next generation operating system is not going to be in the kernel. In other words, it will be like a component add-on that is integrated into a version of the OS that is released. A mobile device could then run the same kernel, but a lightweight GUI layer.

Many people are still expecting or hoping for a version of desktop Windows flexible enough to effectively support small screens without a completely different Windows Mobile OS like we have today in Pocket PC devices. Windows may not look the same on all platforms, but would run on the same kernel and potentially have much better compatibility with desktop apps that are compatible with various device types. To be a realistic progression of the Windows OS, one would also need to see support from Microsoft developer tools as well as improvements in mobile cpu technology. But Bill Gates has always seen the future of mobile computing to be a device that runs a full OS. It's just a matter of when the hardware can do it (and when the OS supports it).

On the other hand, many consider that whole concept to be a pipe dream that is doomed, or at least not appropriate for the next decade or so. I guess time will tell what direction mobile computing will take, but it's pretty hard to rule out just about anything at this point!

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by BobR

Slashdot, the GUI portion of the next generation operating system is not going to be in the kernel. In other words, it will be like a component add-on that is integrated into a version of the OS that is released. A mobile device could then run the same kernel, but a lightweight GUI layer.

Wow! Just like Linux!

Maybe Microsoft has (finally) seen the light and realized that allowing everything to run in kernel-space is BAD for security.

[Alexander Turcic]

What scares me is that we've heard so many (sometimes contrary) things about Vista that it's hard to imagine it'll be backward compatible to existing Windows apps. Given that we have to replace all our hard- and software it'd be just as easy to switch to something totally different - like Linux or Mac OS.

[surur]

Did graphics not just move INTO the kernel in windows XP/2000, to allow for better, faster graphics, especially games, when XP became a consumer OS. I guess that did not work out so well...

Surur

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by surur

Did graphics not just move INTO the kernel in windows XP/2000, to allow for better, faster graphics, especially games, when XP became a consumer OS. I guess that did not work out so well...

It moved from the driver directly accessing the video hardware to accessing the video hardware through the kernel API. An improvement in stability over Win9x, but still insecure.

[rmeister0]

Graphics did not move back into the kernel - it was always in the kernel. What you're probably thinking of is a change in the 95/2000 transition that moved graphics device drivers into "Ring 0" on the processor. Google the term to see why people thought that was a bad idea. In retrospect it now appears to have been a non-issue; people have gotten much better at writing graphics device drivers.

Given that we have to replace all our hard- and software it'd be just as easy to switch to something totally different - like Linux or Mac OS.

Who told you this?

The Vista beta ran just fine on my current hardware, loaded all the device drivers for my current hardware and ran all my current software. Moving from XP to Vista will not be all that traumatic. Contrary to popular opinion, MS bends over backwards on backwards compatibility and it is one of the biggest problems with Windows' security.

The graphics layer will adjust itself depending on the hardware you are using. If you machine is not capable of running the Aero interface, Windows will scale back to the "classic" Windows interface. Heck, I do that now with Windows XP because a) it's native appearance is butt-ugly, and b) the eye-candy chews up clock cycles better spent on other things.

I do not see this as a stepping stone toward moving the kernel into mobile devices. MS already pushes "Windows XP Embedded" for that purpose. Even removing all the GUI portions of the Win32 API, there's still a heck of a lot of code there - far too much to work within the memory, processor and storage confines of the typical PDA. That's why youi have a separate "windows mobile" in the first place.

Moreover, given Microsoft's track record I wont' believe it until I can install it from my MSDN discs. Their marketing department has been talking up an object-oriented file system since the Windows NT days, and it hasn't shipped yet. 2005 was a year of steady shedding of Vista features, and that process probably isn't done yet.

[Alexander Turcic]

Originally Posted by rmeister0

Who told you this? The Vista beta ran just fine on my current hardware, loaded all the device drivers for my current hardware and ran all my current software.

Like you said, it's an early beta you had been running. A video card with even 256MB RAM might be enough for the early beta you've tested, but it's most likely not going to work with the final version of Vista (given Microsoft's new focus on the GPU for screen redrawing). Sure you can always go back and disable features such as the Aero interface - but then I can also stick to Windows XP or switch to Linux before making the sacrifice of investing in new hardware. And if you read about the Output Content Protection, you can easily see why you're screwed with older hardware (keyword: PCI Express) if you want to play video content.

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Wow! Just like Linux!

Maybe Microsoft has (finally) seen the light and realized that allowing everything to run in kernel-space is BAD for security.

And they've also realized just how flexible it is. As Bob noted, it could lead to the same kernel on every Windows device, allowing much more compatibility.

Minus the GUI aspect, anyway. But you get the same problem on Linux, too, unless you have a full X11 setup running on a handheld (which some Zaurus owners do!).

For example...

I've got Linux running on a 10-year old desktop (Slackware) with no problems, a 5+ year old laptop that's half-dead (Slackware again), a Compaq TC1000 tablet (Gentoo - works amazingly well, acutally**), and a three-year old Zaurus SL-5600.

And it's all basically the same kernel. I'm using the 2.4 series on the Slackware systems and the handheld, and the 2.6 series on the tablet. And it works fine. Just different compiling options. Some people also have 2.6 working well on Zauri.


** I've actually had the time to get accustomed to using a tablet recently, as my Powerbook's hard drive died (need to get it replaced, but haven't had the chance yet), and it's become my main computer for the time being. Using it like a laptop is easy, but the tablet-style is quite nice for things like web browsing, I've found. Yes... I'm offtopic. But this also explains (somewhat) my recent absence... Getting used to a new setup isn't easy, nor is finishing up school before Christmas break. Hopefully I'll stick around a lot more now. Probably have a bit of catching up to do, however...

[jago25_98]

Hopefully they'll do the same with removable media so that when you insert a dodgy CD the whole thing doesn't freeze up. Still, it's actually worse on linux for once