InDesign Alternatives

[mattmc]

So, after a long time of creating ePub2 files in InDesign and then scripting the living daylights out of them to make useable files for various platforms, an interesting turn of events had me using iBooks Author for the last several months.

I have to say that I'm quite pleased with iBA. It's like a simpler InDesign, and it has the strong advantage in that it was a tool designed to make eBooks. It was also made by Apple, which may be a turn-off for some, but I find their design and UX principles to be generally sound and even superior. That's not to say that the product doesn't lack; I have 3 or 4 bug reports, usability fixes and so forth filed with Apple currently.

It used to be that iBA could only make a .ibooks files, so it was iPad-only, but last year Apple added ePub3 output from iBA, so you can create a regular reflowable book. Prior to that, iBA had only been suitable for creating textbooks, interactive stuff, fixed layouts, etc. Now it's...basically a legitimate eBook editor.

Despite this, I'm not comfortable taking my iBA ePub3 and distributing it elsewhere than the iBookstore. Out of curiosity, I dumped my ePub3 into Readium in Chrome, and I shuddered and had to close the browser. So fine, looks like iBA for iBookstore and that's it.

So now I'm going back to InDesign -> ePub2, and the more work I have to do in InDesign the more I miss iBA. When you're making a reflowable eBook, most of ID is a cumbersome, useless distraction, and you can very easily and invisibly pervert your document structure with one stray key press, only to notice an hour later when your post-export, pre-Kindlegen script is running. As valiantly as Adobe has tried to make ID relevant in the age of the ePub, it's just the wrong tool for the job.

...And yet, it does many things. Indexing, for example, which iBA lacks. It does hyperlinks pretty OK, and it has para & char styles, spacing & kerning and all that stuff which I have found to be vital in a layout program. It lets you add your own custom CSS, which iBA doesn't, and the markup it generates seems cleaner than iBA's.

So I'm idly casting about for an alternative program with:

• The simplicity, clarity and focus of iBooks Author
• The power of InDesign (indexes, regex styles, scripting)
• Clean ePub2 export

Ideas?

[DaleDe]

While it doesn't have the full power of InDesign I find Atlantis Word Processor to make very clean ePub 2 eBooks from Word or other standard formats. It is a lot cheaper than Word and InDesign.

Dale

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

While it doesn't have the full power of InDesign I find Atlantis Word Processor to make very clean ePub 2 eBooks from Word or other standard formats. It is a lot cheaper than Word and InDesign.

Dale

I suspect the OP uses Apple Mac, Atlantis is Windows only - could probably run it under Parallels, but . . .

@mattmc - what about QuarkXpress, is that still around

BR

[mattmc]

Thanks Dale! Unfortunately BetterRed is correct and I am on a Mac, so I can't try out Atlantis. Don't have Parallels at my fingertips...

QuarkXpress, surprisingly enough, does seem to still be around. They have a whole little ePub exporting thingie, just like InDesign, and it seems like they have a whole "reflowing view" where you can see your content in a linear fashion--one of my main gripes with ID.

...That said, it's $850. Yikes.

Now, the last time I looked at Sigil it was this seemingly abandoned project with some issues (very strict markup validation & "cleaning" which I did not appreciate) but it seems like it's come a long way thanks to some hard work from some people. I mean, it checks a number of boxes...I wonder how hard it would be to implement a styles system and some other things. Too bad I'm allergic to python.

But that's a bit off, so any other suggestions are welcome

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by mattmc

Now, the last time I looked at Sigil it was this seemingly abandoned project with some issues (very strict markup validation & "cleaning" which I did not appreciate) but it seems like it's come a long way thanks to some hard work from some people. I mean, it checks a number of boxes...I wonder how hard it would be to implement a styles system and some other things. Too bad I'm allergic to python.

FYI - ePUB Optimizer, written to .Net in C++ I think, or maybe C#, note user-none's comments in post #2. I think I've also seen mention of writing Sigil plugins in Lua and F-sharp.

BR

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by mattmc

So, after a long time of creating ePub2 files in InDesign and then scripting the living daylights out of them to make useable files for various platforms, an interesting turn of events had me using iBooks Author for the last several months.

Ah.

I have to say that I'm quite pleased with iBA. It's like a simpler InDesign, and it has the strong advantage in that it was a tool designed to make eBooks. It was also made by Apple, which may be a turn-off for some, but I find their design and UX principles to be generally sound and even superior. That's not to say that the product doesn't lack; I have 3 or 4 bug reports, usability fixes and so forth filed with Apple currently.

FWIW, it's definitely a turnoff for me. The Apple interfaces drive me NUTS. They seem so limiting.

It used to be that iBA could only make a .ibooks files, so it was iPad-only, but last year Apple added ePub3 output from iBA, so you can create a regular reflowable book. Prior to that, iBA had only been suitable for creating textbooks, interactive stuff, fixed layouts, etc. Now it's...basically a legitimate eBook editor.

I dunno, man. I've seen the code output from iBA, and I know you're a programmer. I find it odd that you aren't yanking your hair out about what's in the underside.

Despite this, I'm not comfortable taking my iBA ePub3 and distributing it elsewhere than the iBookstore. Out of curiosity, I dumped my ePub3 into Readium in Chrome, and I shuddered and had to close the browser. So fine, looks like iBA for iBookstore and that's it.

I don't mean to be dense, but...then why use it? Saleability-wise, it ertainly seems that the ONLY platform really using ePUB3 is indeed iBooks, and from what my clients tell me, they don't want to be stuck only selling there. Most sell one book on iBooks for every thou that they sell on Amazon. Seems like a ton of work for very, very little return. Didn't I see a post from you around here, with you pulling aforementioned hair out, because it was doing something or the other?

We are asked, fairly frequently, to "revamp" an iBA file, to make it usable for other platforms, and fixing that code would take longer, 10 times out of 10, than just making the book from scratch. Granted, that's pretty much true for trying to fix anyone else's eBook/HTML coding, but the iBA files are just egregiously bad. It's like looking at Pages' output into ePUB. Yikes. I assume that you've already tried using Pages-->ePUB, etc.

So now I'm going back to InDesign -> ePub2, and the more work I have to do in InDesign the more I miss iBA. When you're making a reflowable eBook, most of ID is a cumbersome, useless distraction, and you can very easily and invisibly pervert your document structure with one stray key press, only to notice an hour later when your post-export, pre-Kindlegen script is running. As valiantly as Adobe has tried to make ID relevant in the age of the ePub, it's just the wrong tool for the job.

We have customized templates that we use for iNDD. Granted, that's mostly useful for fiction, but I have House Style (stylesheets, translating for non-INDDers) set for INDD for all types of books, both fiction and non.

I'm working on developing a more streamlined and/or regulated workflow, facilitating straight-up style mapping, from word-processor to INDD to ePUB to MOBI. This doesn't have anything to do with what you're asking, EXCEPT that we're strong in the Force of Sigil, at my shop.

Now, we're not Mac folks. One of my people is a Mac user, but she's mostly handling admin stuff (emails and that). So, our expectation in interfaces is decidedly different than yours. We do also use Epsilon, but, pretty much post-HTML, everything is Sigil. I expect that even with the new processes, Sigil will play a key role.

...And yet, it does many things. Indexing, for example, which iBA lacks. It does hyperlinks pretty OK, and it has para & char styles, spacing & kerning and all that stuff which I have found to be vital in a layout program. It lets you add your own custom CSS, which iBA doesn't, and the markup it generates seems cleaner than iBA's.

Well, no custom CSS would be the death-knell for me. I don't have the luxury. To me, iBA sounds a bit like Vellum, which some of my clients have raved about, and gone on to use. Mostly because it's simple to use. And, compared to using us, it's cheap.

So I'm idly casting about for an alternative program with:

• The simplicity, clarity and focus of iBooks Author
• The power of InDesign (indexes, regex styles, scripting)
• Clean ePub2 export

Ideas?

Ideas for the Holy Grail of eBook production? Gosh.

I've seen a dozen different programs/apps, all aimed at being THIS. None of them are. I've been asked to alpha/beta test most, and while many seem somewhat promising, none do what a company like mine needs done.

Not to insult your programmer-fu, have you tried Jutoh? It has ePUB2 and 3, I believe, can do fixed-layout and regular, and builds MOBIs using KG. It's not my cuppa, again, because I don't like having to redo everything into Julian's (Julian Smart, the developer) odd take on "styles." (At my last gander, you can't put your own Stylesheet in there, and when you want to use a style, you have to scroll through 500 listed styles. That irks me, BUT, I've seen some people who claim that's not true.)

There's Bookalope, and another one (can't think of the name). Some people have touted Blue Griffon's ePUB editor, but it looks like the dog's breakfast, to me. Sigil's better, more powerful, and more advanced...and BG is quite expensive, for what it does. Obviously, Sigil isn't.

Push come to shove, for me, it's INDD->ePUB-->Sigil, and then onward from there. If you're married to the ePUB3 idea, you can do ePUB3 now with Sigil as well.

I don't know of any viable replacement for Sigil, or for INDD, for that matter. Quark's pretty badly outdated, in my experience.

Hitch

[tomsem]

Jutoh seems worth looking at. It is cross-platform, supports some ePub3, updates every 2-3 months. Runs on Raspberry Pi!

[mattmc]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I dunno, man. I've seen the code output from iBA, and I know you're a programmer. I find it odd that you aren't yanking your hair out about what's in the underside.

Eh, it's not particularly worse than the InDesign output, really. Perhaps I've become numb to it. But really, since I'm only targeting iBooks, and the output is consistent and high-quality in iBooks, I don't need to mess with it particularly. If I was in there scripting it up, I'm sure I'd be more upset

One cool thing is that they run the book through a word-stemming and indexing process when they export, so you have these files which are used by the Search process within iBooks. Makes for wicked-fast searches compared to the normal WebKit iBooks renderer; would be cool if Apple could contribute that functionality and stuff to the broader ecosystem.

Originally Posted by Hitch

I don't mean to be dense, but...then why use it? Saleability-wise, it certainly seems that the ONLY platform really using ePUB3 is indeed iBooks, and from what my clients tell me, they don't want to be stuck only selling there. Most sell one book on iBooks for every thou that they sell on Amazon. Seems like a ton of work for very, very little return. Didn't I see a post from you around here, with you pulling aforementioned hair out, because it was doing something or the other?

Yes, you did see such a post

Fortunately or unfortunately, it boils down to features. Doing the whole iBA-authored ePub3 adds some secret-sauce features that I needed, that are difficult to execute with any grace on normal ePub2 files and readers. Makes it worth rebuilding a whole separate file (quite a statement, I know).

Originally Posted by Hitch

We are asked, fairly frequently, to "revamp" an iBA file, to make it usable for other platforms, and fixing that code would take longer, 10 times out of 10, than just making the book from scratch. Granted, that's pretty much true for trying to fix anyone else's eBook/HTML coding, but the iBA files are just egregiously bad. It's like looking at Pages' output into ePUB. Yikes. I assume that you've already tried using Pages-->ePUB, etc.

That's interesting and good to know. I was wondering if the iBooks output could be used as the basis for broader-scoped files; guess not. (No, never tried Pages-->ePub.)

Originally Posted by Hitch

We have customized templates that we use for iNDD. Granted, that's mostly useful for fiction, but I have House Style (stylesheets, translating for non-INDDers) set for INDD for all types of books, both fiction and non.

I have a couple of my own I use, but I'm curious what you have in yours. I guess those are trade secrets?

Originally Posted by Hitch

I'm working on developing a more streamlined and/or regulated workflow, facilitating straight-up style mapping, from word-processor to INDD to ePUB to MOBI. This doesn't have anything to do with what you're asking, EXCEPT that we're strong in the Force of Sigil, at my shop.

Now, we're not Mac folks. One of my people is a Mac user, but she's mostly handling admin stuff (emails and that). So, our expectation in interfaces is decidedly different than yours. We do also use Epsilon, but, pretty much post-HTML, everything is Sigil. I expect that even with the new processes, Sigil will play a key role.

Interesting. Well I have print INDD files to start with basically, so so no word processor involvement.

Epsilon...like the Eclipse/Java/XML transformation suite? o.O

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well, no custom CSS would be the death-knell for me. I don't have the luxury. To me, iBA sounds a bit like Vellum, which some of my clients have raved about, and gone on to use. Mostly because it's simple to use. And, compared to using us, it's cheap.

I did scope out Vellum some. There are aspects of it which are really appealing, but it's very non-power-user. Which makes sense given their business model.

Originally Posted by Hitch

Ideas for the Holy Grail of eBook production? Gosh.

I've seen a dozen different programs/apps, all aimed at being THIS. None of them are. I've been asked to alpha/beta test most, and while many seem somewhat promising, none do what a company like mine needs done.

If I had the time I'd write it myself Ah, well.

Originally Posted by Hitch

Not to insult your programmer-fu, have you tried Jutoh? It has ePUB2 and 3, I believe, can do fixed-layout and regular, and builds MOBIs using KG. It's not my cuppa, again, because I don't like having to redo everything into Julian's (Julian Smart, the developer) odd take on "styles." (At my last gander, you can't put your own Stylesheet in there, and when you want to use a style, you have to scroll through 500 listed styles. That irks me, BUT, I've seen some people who claim that's not true.)

No, haven't tried Jutoh, but you kinda un-sold me on it in that paragraph

Originally Posted by Hitch

There's Bookalope, and another one (can't think of the name). Some people have touted Blue Griffon's ePUB editor, but it looks like the dog's breakfast, to me. Sigil's better, more powerful, and more advanced...and BG is quite expensive, for what it does. Obviously, Sigil isn't.

I did see BG as well and was curious about it, but you're right it's unfortunately rather expensive :-/

Originally Posted by Hitch

Push come to shove, for me, it's INDD->ePUB-->Sigil, and then onward from there. If you're married to the ePUB3 idea, you can do ePUB3 now with Sigil as well.

I don't know of any viable replacement for Sigil, or for INDD, for that matter. Quark's pretty badly outdated, in my experience.

Hitch

Thanks for your wisdom, Hitch. I guess for now I'll stick to INDD->ePUB->Scripting. Maybe there's like, some INDD plugin I can get that will make it easier to control that beast.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by mattmc

Eh, it's not particularly worse than the InDesign output, really. Perhaps I've become numb to it. But really, since I'm only targeting iBooks, and the output is consistent and high-quality in iBooks, I don't need to mess with it particularly. If I was in there scripting it up, I'm sure I'd be more upset

You're a better man than I, Gunga Din. I don't find the INDD stuff bad at all. Of course...that's for what WE do, in-house. Yes, I'm seeing some DOOZIES from "out in the world," since Adobe made it low-barriers to entry. But our own stuff? I'll take that over iBooks ANY day.

One cool thing is that they run the book through a word-stemming and indexing process when they export, so you have these files which are used by the Search process within iBooks. Makes for wicked-fast searches compared to the normal WebKit iBooks renderer; would be cool if Apple could contribute that functionality and stuff to the broader ecosystem.

OK. I don't know what you're doing, so I cannot weight that. I'm sure you're right, for your stuff.

Yes, you did see such a post

Fortunately or unfortunately, it boils down to features. Doing the whole iBA-authored ePub3 adds some secret-sauce features that I needed, that are difficult to execute with any grace on normal ePub2 files and readers. Makes it worth rebuilding a whole separate file (quite a statement, I know).

Again...can't really comment on that. I'm sure you're right, you're not one to waste time on fripperies.

That's interesting and good to know. I was wondering if the iBooks output could be used as the basis for broader-scoped files; guess not. (No, never tried Pages-->ePub.)

The politest way I can comment is HELLS NO. I find it godawful.

I have a couple of my own I use, but I'm curious what you have in yours. I guess those are trade secrets?

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Interesting. Well I have print INDD files to start with basically, so so no word processor involvement.

Lucky bastard. I get everyone ELSE's files, of all types. Word, OO, Pages, LO, Wordperfect, WORKS (you can't make this s**t up...), PDF, INDD, and this week--sooooooo special---QUARK...and of course, paper, and let's not forget, old-style image-only PDFs, too.

Epsilon...like the Eclipse/Java/XML transformation suite? o.O

This one?: http://www.lugaru.com/ . If that's what you are asking, yes. It's dropped in price; used to be $400-ish, I think, per seat. (I could be misremembering, but...that's what I think it used to be.) Practically does your dishes. HA!

I did scope out Vellum some. There are aspects of it which are really appealing, but it's very non-power-user. Which makes sense given their business model.

Yes, it is DEFINITELY non-power user. From our perspective, it's relatively useless, anyway, even were it wonderful, because it's Mac-only.

If I had the time I'd write it myself Ah, well.

You would not be the first MR passerby to say such.

No, haven't tried Jutoh, but you kinda un-sold me on it in that paragraph

Well...you CAN use your own styles, it's just that you have to put them into Jutoh's "proprietary" format. I still, to this damn day, don't know why he did it as he did. I guess he thought that it was more word-processor-ish, to do it this way. But my attitude is, geeeze, I already map styles from Word to this to that to the next thing, and the same with all the other main formats or stops along the way, I just do NOT want to have to do that one more time. PLUS, the whole "oh, proprietary format" shtick..I dunno. Sticks in my craw, but a lot of ppl like it.

I did see BG as well and was curious about it, but you're right it's unfortunately rather expensive :-/

AND, based on comments from people I know and respect, who have tried it, absolutely NOT worth it. Believe me, I would't bat an eyelash if it were fabulous, but...not even as good as Sigil, so...why?

Thanks for your wisdom, Hitch. I guess for now I'll stick to INDD->ePUB->Scripting. Maybe there's like, some INDD plugin I can get that will make it easier to control that beast.

Spoiler:

(Wisdom? Ha! I have YOU fooled....)

Well, that's what we do. {shrug} Believe me, I'd do something different, IF it were out there, IF it were better. I've seen a LOT of guys go through here, all talking about how their app/program/clip was the Next Big Thing, and none, not ONE of them, has been. Sigil is simply unparalleled for Big Kids.

FWIW.

Hitch

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by Hitch

The politest way I can comment is HELLS NO. I find it godawful.

That pretty much sums up Apple's HTML output in general. It is *technically* HTML and CSS, but it is so far from proper semantic markup that every time someone uses it, God kills a kitten.

There's a right way and a wrong way to construct content for HTML output. The right way is to actually edit HTML natively under the hood, or at least semantic XML. The wrong way is to do basically anything else. Guess which one Pages does?

Basically, the output from Pages looks like what would happen if you started out with attributed strings—a string where each character has a set of styles—and then try to turn that into a pile of span tags, and every time you see a different combination of attributes, you create a new span class.

It's what happens when you write code with the intent of emitting printed matter, and then you try to shoehorn in rudimentary HTML output that is technically correct, but utterly unreadable by humans and completely unusable as an input to any transformative process.

And if you're really lucky, every tag is an h1 tag. No, I'm not kidding. I wish I were.

But still, it is arguably slightly better than their previous attempts. AppleWorks didn't even try to emit balanced tags when it converted attributed strings to HTML, so you'd have <p>Blah <b>blah <i>blah</b> blah.</p><p></i>Blah.</p> At least Pages emits technically valid HTML, albeit some of the worst valid HTML I've ever seen in a product not made by Microsoft....

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

That pretty much sums up Apple's HTML output in general. It is *technically* HTML and CSS, but it is so far from proper semantic markup that every time someone uses it, God kills a kitten.

<snippage>

OMG, I snorted water when I read that. Poor wee kittens! I hope all you Mac users feel the pain of what you are inflicting on the world...


Dag:

AMEN. It's just godawful. Have you used iAuthor, and looked at the underlying code? And to think, people bitch about INDD!! Poor beleaguered INDD is the Acme of coding, compared to that crap.

Thank you for that post. Best thing I've read all day. Hell, maybe this WEEK.

Hitch