MobileRead September 2012 Discussion: A Thousand Miles Up the Nile / Amelia Edwards (spoilers)

[WT Sharpe]

Let's discuss the September 2012 MobileRead Book Club selection, A Thousand Miles Up the Nile by Amelia Edwards. What did you think?

[HarryT]

I thought this was a fabulous book (which is why I nominated it). I enjoyed it for many reasons, a few of which I've listed below:

1. Its descriptions of the long-gone world of Victorian travel - a world before mass tourism.

2. The fact that it's about Egypt - probably my favourite place in the world, and one which I know well. It was fascinating to read the descriptions of the Egyptian temples as they were in the mid 19th century (basically half-buried in the sand) and compare that with the way they are now.

3. I very much enjoy the "Amelia Peabody" books of Elizabeth Peters, a character firmly based on that of Amelia Edwards, and I wanted to get to know the original.

4. It's simply a very well-written book, as we should of course expect from a lady who was herself a popular and successful novelist. (If you read my "Christmas Stories" anthology by Charles Dickens, in the MR library, you'll find a number of items in there written by Amelia Edwards.)

I thoroughly enjoyed this book, although I strongly suspect that it wouldn't appeal to everyone. I'd love to hear what other people thought about it.

[fantasyfan]

I love this book!

Amelia Edwards is a marvellous writer who gives us detailed descriptions of her travels which have a photographic intensity of realism. I'll not soon forget her wonderful kaleidoscopic descriptions of the streets of Cairo. One feels actually present.

These Victorians knew how to write!

[WT Sharpe]

I'm still struggling with it, but I find the occasional injections of humor redeeming.

[Bookpossum]

I am about half-way through, and am juggling Amelia and Virgil at the moment!

I agree absolutely about the wonderful, detailed descriptions, and the fascination in hearing what the monuments were like back then, half-buried in sand. A couple of random notes I have made as I read:

* I loved the humour in the description of the multitude of men, boys and donkeys on the bank. But of course to the Egyptians, it was a chance to earn a bit of money and so very serious.

* The prostrate colossus of Rameses the Great and Memphis being only "barren mounds among the palms". I wonder if it was this sight that was the inspiration for Shelley's "Ozymandias"? (Probably everyone knows that poem, but if not, it's worth googling - very powerful.)

* Her description of a camel train which to her was picturesque but to me is horrifying,
as 70 camels were carrying 14 foot elephant tusks, packed in half-dozens, one pack on each side, which would represent about 420 big elephants having been slaughtered. That isn't a criticism of her of course as it was seen as perfectly acceptable to kill elephants for the ivory, but to us it is shocking - an example of how perceptions change over time.

* And I must add how much I am enjoying the beautiful and detailed illustrations too.

[Billi]

I haven't finished this book in time, I am about halfway through. This time I'm struggling a little bit with the English language, but that's of course my fault and not that of Amelia Edwards. It's simply more difficult to read than other English books, perhaps because of all the Arab references and the many descriptions.

Until now I like it. I find it very interesting but sometimes a little bit too detailed.

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'd love to hear what other people thought about it.

I don't know if you've seen it, but sun surfer posted her (lengthy) opinion here quite a while ago already:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...ostcount=14155

[fantasyfan]

A book something like this is Letters From Egypt: A Journey on the Nile 1849-1850 by Florence Nightingale. But her book--interesting though it is and containing excellent illustrations--has less coherence than that of Edwards. I think this is mainly owing to the fact that Amelia Edwards was also a novelist. Note what a great job she does in Chapter 3 where we get details about the crew: their customs, life-style and economy, their relationships with the travellers, their likes and dislikes and even their music. What Edwards does is to create a cast of characters, We have the crew, the Captain, who is a class above them, and, at the apex, the owner who is described vividly as:

". . . a magnificent broad-shouldered Arab of about six feet nine, with a delightful smile, the manners of a gentleman, and the rapacity of a Shylock."

In the background there is the implied rivalry with the French who get a head start and the "compact" with the Miss B's who remain with them for 800 miles of the trip.

So this is more than a travelogue; It is a quest, a journey into time from one culture to another.

And of course we as readers over a century later add another layer to that.

What a great book!

[HarryT]

One episode I thought was interesting was when one of the gentlemen in her party, while out shooting, accidentally shoots a local woman. When the local villagers (not unnaturally) get a little upset about this, and threaten the man, it is they who get severely punished, while the man who did the shooting gets off scott free. A sign of the times, indeed! If an English gentleman shoots you, it's your fault for getting in the way of the bullet, perhaps.

[Bookpossum]

While doing my father's family history, I found a case where a 12 year old boy in 1905 was struck and killed by a car. He was leading a horse down the road of his village in Sussex and was hit on the head by the high mudguard of the car, which came up behind him. There was an inquest, the result of which was a verdict of accidental death and the driver was told to take more care in the future.

So English peasants were pretty dispensable too!

[sun surfer]

I'll echo what I wrote in the Reading Rec thread when I first finished it earlier this month:

It has a lot of very interesting parts - her small party discovered a room and ruins buried under sand for thousands of years, in one town they were led through back rooms trying to buy illegal antiques and ended up trying to be forced to buy an actual mummy in front of them, boat racing up the Nile, at one point an angry mob (almost justifiably) attacking a member of her party, and seeing Egyptian life from the poorest "fellah" to the well-off "sheyk" with "hareems" full of women. I also really liked the writer's zest for adventure, and there's plenty of illustrations of various places made by the writer herself throughout the book.

However, I felt the book had many dry spots, as the writer was extremely interested in all the ruins and described many in almost too much detail. Even sometimes she'd say she'd "only give a brief description" of a particular ruin and then that would last 2 pages, so imagine the less brief ones! It becomes a bit monotonous when the descriptions occur because so many are so similar. I usually abhor abridged editions of fiction books, but for this old non-fiction book, I think it would do to have an abridged version with much of the ruin descriptions cut down.

Aside from over-description, it is interesting reading about ruins which quite a few of are now gone or inaccessible (especially near the end of her journey in "Nubia"; there is now a dam on the Nile that flooded many of the towns and ruins she visited and made a lake), and all the rest of the book is fascinating. Overall, I'd give it 3 out of 5 stars as a very interesting book of real-life adventure and a culture already so changed, but that one needs to put up with recurrent dry spells of overlong ruin descriptions to savour the sweet parts of the rest.

And onto this thread:

Originally Posted by HarryT

One episode I thought was interesting was when one of the gentlemen in her party, while out shooting, accidentally shoots a local woman. When the local villagers (not unnaturally) get a little upset about this, and threaten the man, it is they who get severely punished, while the man who did the shooting gets off scott free. A sign of the times, indeed! If an English gentleman shoots you, it's your fault for getting in the way of the bullet, perhaps.

Yes, I mentioned that as well in the earlier post above because it really took me aback. Not that it happened; I have to say I wasn't so surprised by that, but by the way the author described it. I want to like the writer, but I find her reaction to it all questionable. Of course why should we assume the author would be any different than the average upper-class Brit of the time period, but still, it's a bit jarring when you start to see the ugly side, first-hand from the ugly side.

That she would decide to include it is one matter, as even if she had found the whole situation very unjust to the villagers, it was an interesting cultural incident from a viewpoint of the villagers' reactions and the lawmakers' reactions. But that she would decide to include it, and then describe it as she did, is another.

I find no fault in her first instinct with the rest of the boat of fending off the angry villagers and wanting their friend's safety at that moment. But everything after that is questionable. That she had no negative feelings about her friend reporting the villagers, knowing that they'd probably get into deep trouble for it, and treating a baby almost dying as a "cute" little story about how her friend bandaged it up filled with benevolent condescension. And that she had no negative feelings about her friend's actions in being "shocked" at the first suggestion of punishment by the lawmakers yet just fine with the lesser punishment of so many strikes. It just seemed all in bad taste and though I must remember the times it still surprised me after getting to know the author through the first part of the book.

ETA - But nevertheless very interesting anthropologically from the point of view of an incident that really happened between the peoples of two different cultures some 150 years ago.

[fantasyfan]

Having read Ch 19 I can see why the sensibilities of readers should be so offended. For me, the fact that this incident--which could have resulted in a fatality--was treated in such an anecdotal style was upsetting.

At the same time, Amelia Edwards does voice her shame at the fact that the arrested offenders were brought before the Governor in chains.

"The gaoler marched first, followed by two soldiers. Then came the fifteen prisoners – I am ashamed to write it! – chained neck to neck in single file."

I think that "The Idle Man" is well named. I believe he found that making a complaint embroiled him in further responsibilities which he didn't expect and which would also prevent him from washing his hands of the entire affair; he discovered that he would be directly responsible for the punishment and its intensity.

"One can imagine how the Idle Man felt at this moment.

Sentence being pronounced, the fourteen looked as if they could hardly believe their ears ; while the fifteenth, though condemned to his one hundred and fifty strokes ("seventy-five to each foot," specified the Governor), was overjoyed to be let off so easily.

He was then flung down ; his feet were fastened soles uppermost ; and two soldiers proceeded to execute the sentence. As each blow fell, he cried: "God save the Governor! God save the Mudîr! God save the Howadji!"

When the sixth stroke had been dealt, the Idle Man turned to the Governor and formally interceded for the remission of the rest of the sentence. The Governor, as formally, granted the request ; and the prisoners, weeping for joy, were set at liberty."

{IMO} This should not be regarded as a nice happy ending--whatever the feelings of the visitors may have been. A Political dimension is added. The implication is that enjoyment of the English--possibly because of the money they bring and the political influence they have--is more important than any possible danger to the inhabitants.

"The Governor, the Mudîr, and the Idle Man then parted with a profusion of compliments ; the Governor protesting that his only wish was to be agreeable to the English, and that the whole village should have been bastinadoed, had his Excellency desired it." {emphasis added}

I feel that one must remember that Edwards is coming from a context in which the British Empire was seen as the major civilizing force in the world--that it was the duty of the English to bring "enlightenment" to the lands they colonized. Indeed England abolished slavery in Great Britain in 1772 and throughout the British Empire in 1833. Still, this "White Man's Burden" attitude was a delusion; one which Rudyard Kipling writing well after Edwards still held at the turn of the century:

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go, bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait, in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.

So I would agree that this entire incident is useful as being revelatory about the author, the English attitude in general. and about the ruling structures of Egypt.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by fantasyfan

So I would agree that this entire incident is useful as being revelatory about the author, the English attitude in general. and about the ruling structures of Egypt.

Not just the English, but the whole "colonial" attitude of the 19th and early 20th century.

Around 1915 or so, Howard Carter (the future discover of the tomb of King Tutankhamon) held the position of "Inspector of Antiquities" for the Luxor area (which includes the Valley of the Kings). One day, some drunken French tourists tried to force their way into one of the tombs, past the Egyptian guard who was on duty at the tomb. He wouldn't let them in, and Carter was sacked from his job by the (French) director of the Antiquities Service because he refused to discipline the guard for doing his duty. Laying hands on European visitors by blocking their entrance to the tomb was an unforgivable offence.

But we have to remember that, represensible as we find these attitudes, these people were a product of the society that they grew up in, and to them, this was the natural order of things. We really can't blame them for following the conventions of their society.

[fantasyfan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Not just the English, but the whole "colonial" attitude of the 19th and early 20th century.

Around 1915 or so, Howard Carter (the future discover of the tomb of King Tutankhamon) held the position of "Inspector of Antiquities" for the Luxor area (which includes the Valley of the Kings). One day, some drunken French tourists tried to force their way into one of the tombs, past the Egyptian guard who was on duty at the tomb. He wouldn't let them in, and Carter was sacked from his job by the (French) director of the Antiquities Service because he refused to discipline the guard for doing his duty. Laying hands on European visitors by blocking their entrance to the tomb was an unforgivable offence.

But we have to remember that, represensible as we find these attitudes, these people were a product of the society that they grew up in, and to them, this was the natural order of things. We really can't blame them for following the conventions of their society.

Yes, you make an excellent point.

[spindlegirl]

I have not yet read the whole book, but I am enjoying the discussion. Will have some more time today while waiting for an appointment.

[WT Sharpe]

I was surprised at the book's description of Dervishes as "howling dervishes". Whirling Dervishes I've heard, so-called because of the ecstatic dances performed by these Sufi ascetics, but never heard them described as howling.