Saving text formatting to use across books

[m00min]

Apologies if this has been covered somewhere before, I read through the forum posts and the Marvin website but couldn't find what I was after.

Is there any way to save my paragraph spacing setting so that I don't have to set it for each book? When I switch to using Marvin's formatting to change font all of my book's vertical margins disappear. Ideally I'd like to keep the books formatting but adjust the font and colours, this doesn't seem possible though.

Am I just being silly and missing something obvious in the settings?

[Faterson]

m00min, I fully agree with you, but for some reason, back in January when the paragraph spacing setting was first introduced to Marvin (and it works wonderfully in Marvin!), Kris decided that this particular setting -- paragraph spacing -- will be the only aspect of formatting that will default to the publisher setting every time you launch a new book in Marvin.

All the other formatting preferences -- font size, type, color, etc. -- get retained, "inherited" from the last book you had opened in your Marvin before launching the new book... but this one formatting aspect, paragraph spacing, just always defaults to the publisher setting initially. With a few presses of the button, you can, of course, adjust it to your liking, but it can get tedious to have to do it over and over and over again for every new book.

Please note that the paragraph spacing button shows a small dot when the paragraph spacing in Marvin is identical with the publisher's original paragraph spacing. That will be the status for every book when you launch it in Marvin for the first time.

I have, by now, grown used to this weird inconsistency in Marvin. If you feel strongly about this issue, though, you might open an issue over on GitHub, and ask Kris to reconsider his choice from back in January.

[kguil]

During testing I found that many books handle paragraph spacing very differently. Applying exactly the same spacing value to different books resulted in bad results more often than not, so Marvin will start with a "safe" value.

[artbatista]

Originally Posted by kguil

During testing I found that many books handle paragraph spacing very differently. Applying exactly the same spacing value to different books resulted in bad results more often than not, so Marvin will start with a "safe" value.

My experience is consistent with Kris'

Seems that every book displays slightly different on Marvin (and just about every book reader in existence).

Some books display just fine (and by fine, I mean fine for me, maybe not you) on the Marvin default, some do not and I have to adjust line/paragraph spacing, font size, etc.

Some books are even more difficult, and I can't adjust the spacing at all, some allow only to increase spacing. Granted those are few and far in between, but the point I am trying to make is that publishers really should be using a more "bland" set of formatting options and giving the reader the choice of formatting.

Whenever I come across these effects, I check the book, I usually find some weird setting in CSS files, and it takes hand editing to "fix" the book.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling, but the point I think, is that it's very difficult for a program (even Marvin) to anticipate all the craziness publishers use in their formatting choices.

As a consolation, I believe that books are much better formatted this days than a couple of years ago.

Cheers

Art

[m00min]

Originally Posted by kguil

During testing I found that many books handle paragraph spacing very differently. Applying exactly the same spacing value to different books resulted in bad results more often than not, so Marvin will start with a "safe" value.

I can see that would be a problem. I would be fine using my book's default paragraph spacing settings (I tweak all of my eBook files anyway) but if I want to use Marvin's themes it then ignores the paragraph margins set within my ebooks. It seems my choice is an all-or-nothing one.

Is this a safety feature? I can see a potential issue if a publisher has set their paragraphs badly (in pixels) and a user then increases their font size.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by kguil

During testing I found that many books handle paragraph spacing very differently. Applying exactly the same spacing value to different books resulted in bad results more often than not, so Marvin will start with a "safe" value.

Originally Posted by artbatista

Some books display just fine (and by fine, I mean fine for me, maybe not you) on the Marvin default, some do not and I have to adjust line/paragraph spacing, font size, etc.

Yes, that's true, guys. The great thing about Marvin is that with virtually every e-book I have ever opened, all it takes is a few presses of a few buttons in Marvin, and the book looks just fantastic in Marvin (but only in in Marvin) -- as if I had designed its type-setting 100% to my liking. I know no other e-reader besides Marvin that can perform this "magic" in quite this way.

I would submit that the issue m00min talked about only becomes irksome if you have, say, 10 e-books from the same series and same publisher, who used exactly the same settings in publishing the 10 books. Then you feel like, "Gosh, why do I have to keep adjusting the same paragraph spacing in all 10 books."

But, like Art suggests, that's a rather untypical situation. In most books you will ever open in Marvin, you will feel like adjusting its font size, line spacing, etc., anyway. And while you're at it, you might adjust paragraph spacing as well -- it not having been inherited from the previously opened book no longer feels like a waste of time.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by m00min

I would be fine using my book's default paragraph spacing settings

That's exactly what's happening.

Originally Posted by m00min

but if I want to use Marvin's themes it then ignores the paragraph margins set within my ebooks. It seems my choice is an all-or-nothing one.

I don't think so. It's definitely not "all or nothing". "Marvin's formatting" re-interprets your original code, but that always only happens in response to the button presses you make in Marvin. The fidelity of rendering has been increasing in Marvin from version to version, and will continue to do so.

Originally Posted by m00min

Is this a safety feature?

Yes, that's what Kris is saying. But it really applies to paragraph spacing only. Everything else, including font sizes, is opened in the new book exactly as it was set up in the previous book you had opened in Marvin before opening the new book.

But here is the problem: for publisher A, his default may be font size 10, while for publisher B, his default may be font size 15. They should not be specifying any rigidly fixed font sizes (12pt versus 1.2em), but they do it anyway. It's weird, but publishers are weird (often incompetent, in terms of coding) folks.

So, if your preference in book A was to increase the font size by 30%, so that you get to see font size 13 instead of 10, and you then open book B, then a 30% increase from font 15 is font 20, and you end up with ridiculously huge fonts everywhere in that book. That's what keeps happening with badly formatted e-books, and it seems most e-books, including professionally published ones, are badly formatted.

The good news is: all it takes is a few button presses in Marvin to fix the typesetting to your personal liking -- and that setting will remain sticky forever in that particular book in Marvin for you.

[m00min]

Originally Posted by Faterson

That's exactly what's happening.

I don't think so. It's definitely not "all or nothing". "Marvin's formatting" re-interprets your original code, but that always only happens in response to the button presses you make in Marvin. The fidelity of rendering has been increasing in Marvin from version to version, and will continue to do so.

No, it isn't. To use the themes I have to switch away from the "publishers" settings, this is then ignoring ALL of the styles within the ebook. All of my carefully worked out spacing for paragraphs, titles, blockquotes, etc are ignored, and that's just if I want to set the colours, before I even go near changing the font face.

Originally Posted by Faterson

Yes, that's what Kris is saying. But it really applies to paragraph spacing only. Everything else, including font sizes, is opened in the new book exactly as it was set up in the previous book you had opened in Marvin before opening the new book.

But here is the problem: for publisher A, his default may be font size 10, while for publisher B, his default may be font size 15. They should not be specifying any rigidly fixed font sizes (12pt versus 1.2em), but they do it anyway. It's weird, but publishers are weird (often incompetent, in terms of coding) folks.

So, if your preference in book A was to increase the font size by 30%, so that you get to see font size 13 instead of 10, and you then open book B, then a 30% increase from font 15 is font 20, and you end up with ridiculously huge fonts everywhere in that book. That's what keeps happening with badly formatted e-books, and it seems most e-books, including professionally published ones, are badly formatted.

The good news is: all it takes is a few button presses in Marvin to fix the typesetting to your personal liking -- and that setting will remain sticky forever in that particular book in Marvin for you.

It's a shame there isn't an override option for those of us who have tweaked our ebooks, given Marvin is a DRM free reader I would think the percentage of users doing this is probably higher than for other software. Having to do those "few button presses" every. single. time is really starting to irritate. I'm sure this wasn't the case in an earlier version of Marvin so it feels like a step backward.

I love using Marvin so please don't think I'm bashing the whole app it's just this one thing is becoming an issue for me.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by m00min

To use the themes I have to switch away from the "publishers" settings, this is then ignoring ALL of the styles within the ebook.

No, I don't think it's ignoring them. It is re-interpreting them based on your original code but, after all, that is what you instructed Marvin to do, by opting for Marvin's formatting, instead of publisher's formatting.

Originally Posted by m00min

All of my carefully worked out spacing for paragraphs, titles, blockquotes, etc are ignored

Please realize that Marvin is reader-centric software: it is not obsessed by the publisher's preferences, enforcing them for readers (like most other e-reader apps do), but Marvin very much gives free hand to the end user, the reader of the book, to have the book displayed as the reader (rather than the publisher) wishes to see it.

To "vain" publishers obsessed with their own formatting ideas and about imposing them on readers at all costs, this will sound like a nightmare, while the ordinary reader will rejoice.

Your situation here is extremely untypical because you happen to be the reader and publisher in the same person. That is not the typical situation most Marvin users will find themselves in -- not even myself, and I publish e-books, too.

Originally Posted by m00min

All of my carefully worked out spacing for paragraphs, titles, blockquotes, etc are ignored

Not ignored, but re-interpreted. If you wish to see the book exactly as you specified it in your code, you simply must activate Marvin's Publisher Settings switch.

Now, if you still wish to be able to modify font and background colours, or activate the Night Mode with the Publisher Settings switch active, that is very much a legitimate feature request, and you might wish to submit it to GitHub for Kris to consider. Quite a few people have already expressed the wish to be able to turn on Night Mode, for example, while viewing "Publisher Settings".

As to me, I don't use the Publisher Settings switch at all, because I'm just not interested in the publisher's ideas about how the book should be displayed on my particular device. The publishers have their own publishers' vanity, but I have my own reader's vanity, and my vanity wins, at least on my reading devices.

Originally Posted by m00min

Having to do those "few button presses" every. single. time is really starting to irritate.

Well, how many new books per day do you read, m00min? Do you really keep loading dozens of new books into Marvin every day? A typical reader will open a new book in Marvin every few days, or every week, or every month... at such a rate, having to do "a few button presses every time" does not feel like a nuisance -- it very much feels like a privilege, that Marvin gives me the opportunity to adjust everything in Marvin just as I wish to see it, and not as the (vain) publisher would wish to enforce it for me to see.

Originally Posted by m00min

I'm sure this wasn't the case in an earlier version of Marvin so it feels like a step backward.

I'm certain your impression is incorrect, m00min. Marvin has not changed the way it handles the display of books, since version 1 back in December 2012. If anything, Marvin has improved its fidelity of rendering since then.

What I believe is happening here, is that you got bogged down in the newly added "Publisher Settings" switch in Marvin, and you expect it to accomplish what Kris has so far not enabled it to accomplish. To improve the way the "Publisher Settings" switch currently behaves in Marvin, you will need to submit your specific requests to Kris, ideally over on GitHub.

[kguil]

@m00min - I might be misunderstanding the situation - why have you switched to publisher settings? Marvin's layout does not ignore publisher's paragraph settings (it just let's you override it). You'll notice that if you tap the increase/decrease paragraph margins button, at some point you'll see a dot in the middle of the button. If that dot is visible, it means that the current setting is exactly equal to what the publisher (css) intended.

[m00min]

Originally Posted by Faterson

No, I don't think it's ignoring them. It is re-interpreting them based on your original code but, after all, that is what you instructed Marvin to do, by opting for Marvin's formatting, instead of publisher's formatting.

You say reinterpreting but it's effectively setting everything to zero. That's ignoring in my book. If it was reinterpreting I'd expect to see some spacing at least applied to titles but that isn't the case.

Originally Posted by Faterson

Now, if you still wish to be able to modify font and background colours, or activate the Night Mode with the Publisher Settings switch active, that is very much a legitimate feature request, and you might wish to submit it to GitHub for Kris to consider. Quite a few people have already expressed the wish to be able to turn on Night Mode, for example, while viewing "Publisher Settings".

That's exactly what I'm after. I'll take a look at GitHub.

Originally Posted by Faterson

Well, how many new books per day do you read, m00min? Do you really keep loading dozens of new books into Marvin every day? A typical reader will open a new book in Marvin every few days, or every week, or every month... at such a rate, having to do "a few button presses every time" does not feel like a nuisance -- it very much feels like a privilege, that Marvin gives me the opportunity to adjust everything in Marvin just as I wish to see it, and not as the (vain) publisher would wish to enforce it for me to see.

Typically I might open a new book a week but having to constantly readjust something I've already set just feels like bad UX.

Originally Posted by Faterson

I'm certain your impression is incorrect, m00min. Marvin has not changed the way it handles the display of books, since version 1 back in December 2012. If anything, Marvin has improved its fidelity of rendering since then.

What I believe is happening here, is that you got bogged down in the newly added "Publisher Settings" switch in Marvin, and you expect it to accomplish what Kris has so far not enabled it to accomplish. To improve the way the "Publisher Settings" switch currently behaves in Marvin, you will need to submit your specific requests to Kris, ideally over on GitHub.

I'm pretty sure I used to be able to change the font face without incurring margin: 0 hell.

[m00min]

Originally Posted by kguil

@m00min - I might be misunderstanding the situation - why have you switched to publisher settings? Marvin's layout does not ignore publisher's paragraph settings (it just let's you override it). You'll notice that if you tap the increase/decrease paragraph margins button, at some point you'll see a dot in the middle of the button. If that dot is visible, it means that the current setting is exactly equal to what the publisher (css) intended.

Just checked d I'm seeing that dot when the margins are collapsed to zero, which is definitely not in my stylesheet.

This is the style for my P tags:

p { text-indent: 1em; margin: 0 0 0.75em 0; line-height: 1.16666em; }

The text-indent is carried through to the "Marvin" settings but the margin is being detected as zero.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by m00min

You say reinterpreting but it's effectively setting everything to zero.

Definitely not. Take a look at my EPUB test file, and you will see that Marvin preserves quite a lot from the original code. I am, likewise, requesting Kris, in that GitHub thread, to respect more from the publisher's original settings than "Marvin's formatting" currently does, but I'm not obsessed by microscopic paragraph margins as you seem to be. Especially not because those paragraph margins can be easily adjusted to whatever the reader (not the publisher) wishes to see.

Originally Posted by m00min

If it was reinterpreting I'd expect to see some spacing at least applied to titles but that isn't the case.

Spacing definitely is applied to titles -- just not, apparently, your particular titles in your particular book(s), but please don't over-generalize this. I agree Kris should fix any such issues as we move along. It will be best if you post specific examples to GitHub or send them directly to Kris along with the book.

Originally Posted by m00min

having to constantly readjust something I've already set just feels like bad UX.

What do you mean by "constantly re-adjust"? One of the genius features of Marvin is that you never have to re-adjust anything. Once you set something in a book, it will remain sticky in that book, forever. And, you can easily transfer the settings from that particular book to any other new book, simply by opening that earlier book prior to opening the new book. As explained above, the only setting that is not carried over from book A to book B, is paragraph spacing. Everything else is preserved 100% just as you yourself set it up. If, despite that, the new book does not look satisfactory to you, then the book's code is responsible for that, not Marvin. But the good news is you can always fix the new book's display in a few seconds with a few button presses, something that other e-readers do not allow you to do at all, or only in an extremely limited/crude fashion.

Originally Posted by m00min

I'm pretty sure I used to be able to change the font face without incurring margin: 0 hell.

Absolutely, you still can do that. You must be struggling with some extremely malformatted e-books if you're unable to do that now. The setting of font faces and margins is completely separate in Marvin. (It does seem to me you are conflating "Publisher's Settings" and "Marvin's formatting" if you're getting these impressions.)

Originally Posted by m00min

p { text-indent: 1em; margin: 0 0 0.75em 0; line-height: 1.16666em; }

The text-indent is carried through to the "Marvin" settings but the margin is being detected as zero.

Big deal! So why don't you press that paragraph spacing button and increase the spacing, so that it corresponds to your 0.75em? As explained above, paragraph spacing is the only feature not carried over from book to book.

The point here, though, is elsewhere: do you really believe other readers will be fascinated by your 0.75em paragraph spacing, as you specified it in your book as its publisher? Let me tell you, the first thing I'd do in that book, is to override that 0.75em margin to one that I prefer. So why, exactly, should it be such an earth-shattering issue that the 0.75em margin may not be indicated instantly when the book is first launched in Marvin? What's the likelihood that a Marvin user (not you, the publisher) will be upset and unhappy upon not finding your 0.75em paragraph spacing upon opening your book in Marvin? I'd say, it's far more likely that whatever paragraph spacing the reader may find in a book, he or she will proceed and modify that paragraph spacing, anyway, to whatever paragraph spacing the reader (not the publisher) wishes to see.

[m00min]

Originally Posted by Faterson

Spacing definitely is applied to titles -- just not, apparently, your particular titles in your particular book(s), but please don't over-generalize this. I agree Kris should fix any such issues as we move along. It will be best if you post specific examples to GitHub or send them directly to Kris along with the book.

Please stop telling me what you think I'm seeing. My CSS margin on H or P tags is NOT being carried through. I'm not over-generalising anything, just asking a question to something that's been bothering me. How am I to know that it's something that only I'm bothered with?

Originally Posted by Faterson

What do you mean by "constantly re-adjust"? One of the genius features of Marvin is that you never have to re-adjust anything. Once you set something in a book, it will remain sticky in that book, forever. And, you can easily transfer the settings from that particular book to any other new book, simply by opening that earlier book prior to opening the new book. As explained above, the only setting that is not carried over from book A to book B, is paragraph spacing. Everything else is preserved 100% just as you yourself set it up. If, despite that, the new book does not look satisfactory to you, then the book's code is responsible for that, not Marvin. But the good news is you can always fix the new book's display in a few seconds with a few button presses, something that other e-readers do not allow you to do at all, or only in an extremely limited/crude fashion.

I believe I've already explained this. "Constantly re-adjust" with every new book I open.

Originally Posted by Faterson

Absolutely, you still can do that. You must be struggling with some extremely malformatted e-books if you're unable to do that now. The setting of font faces and margins is completely separate in Marvin. (It does seem to me you are conflating "Publisher's Settings" and "Marvin's formatting" if you're getting these impressions.)

My code is not malformatted, it validates just fine.

Originally Posted by Faterson

Big deal! So why don't you press that paragraph spacing button and increase the spacing, so that it corresponds to your 0.75em? As explained above, paragraph spacing is the only feature not carried over from book to book.

The point here, though, is elsewhere: do you really believe other readers will be fascinated by your 0.75em paragraph spacing, as you specified it in your book as its publisher? Let me tell you, the first thing I'd do in that book, is to override that 0.75em margin to one that I prefer. So why, exactly, should it be such an earth-shattering issue that the 0.75em margin may not be indicated instantly when the book is first launched in Marvin? What's the likelihood that a Marvin user (not you, the publisher) will be upset and unhappy upon not finding your 0.75em paragraph spacing upon opening your book in Marvin? I'd say, it's far more likely that whatever paragraph spacing the reader may find in a book, he or she will proceed and modify that paragraph spacing, anyway, to whatever paragraph spacing the reader (not the publisher) wishes to see.

I'm not suggesting that there be no option for adjusting the margins, I don't care what people do to ebooks they're reading. What I'm saying is overriding the style to zero if I haven't actually pressed any of the formatting buttons seems like not the right way to go. I just want to be able to open a book knowing it will use the theme colours I've specified but retain the typography I've setup in the CSS. It sounds like this is how it's supposed to work anyway but for some reason it isn't for me.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by m00min

My CSS margin on H or P tags is NOT being carried through.

I believe it's an issue with your particular CSS, not with Marvin, because my CSS is being carried through to Marvin, though not in every respect, and I'm fine with that. Apart from a few improvement suggestions I do have, that is: besides the needlessly overridden font colours, some of my headings likewise are missing spacing specified in my CSS, but Kris can take a look at that in my EPUB test file and improve the handling in future Marvin versions.

Originally Posted by m00min

"Constantly re-adjust" with every new book I open.

The only thing to readjust in Marvin is paragraph spacing. That's it. If you need to readjust anything else, it's an issue with your particular books' code, and the best way to resolve that conundrum is to e-mail those books to Kris so that he can take a look at their code to see what's happening.