New MRBC Flashman by George MacDonald Fraser (Discussion)

[hildea]

Here's the voting thread.

Fraser revives Flashman, a caddish bully from Tom Brown's Schooldays by Thomas Hughes, and relates Flashman’s adventures after he is expelled in drunken disgrace from Rugby school in the late 1830s. Flashy enlists in the Eleventh Light Dragoons and is promptly sent to India and Afghanistan, where despite his consistently cowardly behavior he always manages to come out on top. Flashman is an incorrigible anti-hero for the ages. This humorous adventure book will appeal to fans of historical fiction, military fiction, and British history as well as to fans of Clive Cussler, James Bond, and The Three Musketeers.

I'm starting the discussion thread from the beginning, so people can comment as they read, if they want. I suggest we allow open spoilers, and do not require spoilers to be hidden in spoiler boxes like this:

Spoiler:

this is a spoiler

People who want to read unspoiled should stay away from this thread until they have finished the book.
If others prefer hidden spoilers, say so, and we can change that.

[Quoth]

But presumably totally unappealing to people that hate stories around cads, bullys and anti-heroes. I read the blurbs years ago and I can't see how it's like Clive Cussler, James Bond, and The Three Musketeers. I've read some Cussler & Fleming: The only commonality is Bond and Pitt are womanisers. The Three Musketeers is a different thing again. Anyone else struck by how infrequently they use a musket?

[John F]

Originally Posted by Quoth

But presumably totally unappealing to people that hate stories around cads, bullys and anti-heroes. I read the blurbs years ago and I can't see how it's like Clive Cussler, James Bond, and The Three Musketeers. I've read some Cussler & Fleming: The only commonality is Bond and Pitt are womanisers. The Three Musketeers is a different thing again. Anyone else struck by how infrequently they use a musket?

Next time, try voting instead of whinging after the fact.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by Quoth

But presumably totally unappealing to people that hate stories around cads, bullys and anti-heroes. I read the blurbs years ago and I can't see how it's like Clive Cussler, James Bond, and The Three Musketeers. I've read some Cussler & Fleming: The only commonality is Bond and Pitt are womanisers. The Three Musketeers is a different thing again. Anyone else struck by how infrequently they use a musket?

I agree that the only commonality with Bond is the womanizing; however, I think the Musketeers were self-involved cads, also. People who think otherwise haven’t read the book. (I don’t know anything about Custer.) But I hate blurbs along the lines of, “For fans of X, Y and Z” as the associations are generally superficial and facile. I wish the wonderful Flashman books hadn’t been degraded in that manner; they can stand on their own merit.

This is one of my all-time favorite series; so much so that I only rarely allow myself the privilege and great enjoyment of reading the next one.

[gmw]

Anyone that's read the first Dirk Pitt book from Clive Cussler (The Mediterranean Caper, aka Mayday!) knows that Pitt, too, started out as a self-involved cad. He improves considerably after that ... which, if you've read later books, you may wonder about, but the first book really is quite appalling.

[hildea]

I've just started it, and like it a lot better than I expected so far. The introduction about how the first edition of the book was received had me laughing out loud more than once. I have no idea whether that intro is true or not -- MacDonald talks about reviewers who took his first introduction at face value and thought the book was a real memoir, but I wouldn't put it past him to write a joking intro to the new edition.

Originally Posted by How Did I Get the Idea of Flashman?, 2013

...one left-wing journal which hailed it as a scathing attack on British imperialism

I suspect I'm going to read it at least partly in this light, whether the author intended it or not

Originally Posted by How Did I Get the Idea of Flashman?, 2013

...complain that he’s a racist (of course he is; why should he be different from the rest of humanity?)

Hm. In a way I agree -- it's extremely difficult to grow up in a racist society without internalising some of those views. On the other hand, if everyone's racist, it becomes a meaningless criticism. It is meaningful to say that someone's especially racist, and I expect Harry Flashman will reveal himself to be in that category.

Starting the book, this passage struck me:

Originally Posted by Chapter 2

He was a nabob’s grandson, you see, old Jack Flashman having made a fortune in America out of slaves and rum, and piracy, too, I shouldn’t wonder

I've read a lot of historical novels, and if important characters are wealthy the novels often ignore thorny questions about the source of that wealth. Here, the author is willing to say the unpleasant part out loud, and the protagonist sees (realistically) no problem with it.

There's absolutely no doubt that Harry Flashman is a terrible person, and I'd dislike and condemn him if he was real, but I think I'm going to enjoy reading about him. He's an interesting contrast to the protagonist of East Lynne, who's no doubt a far better person, but when we first meet her in the the book she's so bland and devoid of personality that I haven't mustered the interest to read beyond the second chapter.

[hildea]

Originally Posted by issybird

I think the Musketeers were self-involved cads, also.

Absolutely!

This is one of my all-time favorite series; so much so that I only rarely allow myself the privilege and great enjoyment of reading the next one.

I can understand why I wonder if KJ Charles took some inspiration from Flashman when she wrote "The Henchmen of Zenda". Both her Detchard and her Hentzau remind me a bit of Flashman.

[drofgnal]

I'm struggling with this book. Flashman is worse than a cad. When he almost raped his dad's misttress I nearly pulled the rip cord. Mostly I like books, tv shows, movies etc. where the main character is likable or someone you are pulling for. Flashman is not that. In an hour or so, I'll be on my back porch for my morning reading session, I'm not sure I'll open Flashman. I also feel really ripped off having paid 12.99 for this at Amazon. Never again, if I finish this book, I won't buy any subsequent books in the series.

I'm glad I got my recent fill of classics with David Copperfield and The Time Machine.

[John F]

I enjoyed the Afganistan part. The rest: meh. I won't be continuing the series.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by hildea

Absolutely!


I can understand why I wonder if KJ Charles took some inspiration from Flashman when she wrote "The Henchmen of Zenda". Both her Detchard and her Hentzau remind me a bit of Flashman.

There’s a great pleasure in store for you; [not a spoiler] the second Flashman book, Royal Flash, also is a riff on The Prisoner of Zenda. So I can easily see multiple influences for Charles; but her own take was original, inspired and totally in canon, too.

Still grateful to you for recommending it!

[hildea]

Originally Posted by drofgnal

When he almost raped his dad's misttress I nearly pulled the rip cord.

I agree.

When we got to Scotland, this passage had me laughing out loud:

When we had finished, she lay in the grass, drowsy, like a contented kitten, and after a few pleased sighs she said:

‘Was that what the minister means when he talks of fornication?’

Astonished, I said, yes, it was.

‘Um-hm,’ said she. ‘Why has he such a down on it?’

Then he was posted to India, and, um. That was pretty ugly. Using the n-word as if it was punctuation, describing and treating Indian people as slaves. Fraser's comment in the foreword is even more disingenious than I expected, implying that Flashman is no more racist than humanity in general:

Originally Posted by How Did I Get the Idea of Flashman?, 2013

...complain that he’s a racist (of course he is; why should he be different from the rest of humanity?)

Then there's this passage (meeting a superior officer in Afghanistan):

This was too good a chance to miss, so I said: ‘I was expelled from Rugby, too, sir.’

‘Good God! You don’t say! What for, sir?’

‘Drunkenness, sir.’

‘No! Well, damme! Who’d have believed they would kick you out for that? They’ll be expellin’ for rape next.

The sentiment is horribly plausible.

I'm thinking again of that "left-wing journal which hailed it as a scathing attack on British imperialism". It's hard to believe that this wasn't the intention. Flashman is such a terrible person, as are most of the English people we meet.

I'm taking a break from it, not sure if I'll continue. It's well written, and the story is interesting. I want to see what happens next. I find it hard when the protagonist is so extremely unsympathetic, but it helps (somewhat) that he makes no attempt to justify himself to the reader.

Originally Posted by issybird

There’s a great pleasure in store for you; [not a spoiler] the second Flashman book, Royal Flash, also is a riff on The Prisoner of Zenda.

That sounds interesting! I might keep reading for that.

[BenG]

Royal Flash was made into a 1975 Richard Lester movie with Malcolm McDowell and Oliver Reed. Fraser adapted his book for the screen, as he did for Lester's Musketeer movies.