Seriously thoughtful Without repercussions, would we have morals?

[afa]

I had a little discussion with some friends the other day.

Let's say you knew the world is ending in a week. All life would cease to exist. The reasons don't matter; nuclear war, giant comet/asteroid, self-destruction caused by that thing in the air from Shyamalan's The Happening (horrible movie, by the way).

What wouldn't you do? I don't ask what would you do, because each of us probably have a thousand things we would (like to) do. What wouldn't you do? Steal? Kill? Pillage and plunder?

There are a lot of things most of us do not do because it's 'wrong'. But why is it wrong? Certainly one reason is that if I, say, steal my neighbour's car, it's wrong because I am unfairly depriving him of something that is rightfully his. He worked for it, he earned it, he bought it. And I'm taking that away from him. Repercussions, in other words.

The thought of repercussions (both to yourself, and others) are, I feel, a large part of what motivates us to live a life with morals and ethics. But if the world is ending, are there repercussions? It seems to me that the repercussions are, at best, minimal. I've always wanted to own a Ferrari. So what's stopping me from going down to my nearest dealer, smashing the windows and driving off with a gorgeous 599 GTB? And if someone tries to stop me, I'll whip out my handy Swiss army knife and stab him in his doomed little heart. The world's ending in a few days, anyway, so where's the harm?

So what wouldn't you do. More importantly, why? I'll go first: (assuming the disclaimer that I might change my mind depending on someone's given example.) Nothing. I think I'll do anything and everything that I feel like. And I realise that calls my moral character into question. (Or does it...? Perhaps there is no such thing as morality in this scenario.)

NOTE: I don't want to discuss this from the point of view of religion or God. Not because I have anything against them, but because that would be a pretty open and shut case. Don't steal because it's a sin. Done and dusted. In the interest of debate, let's leave religious beliefs out of it.

[neilmarr]

Hi AFA: This question is addressed and interestingly answered in the main theme of *The End of Science Fiction* by Sam Smith. You can read about it by going to the bookstore section of my website (url below). If you want to read the ebook version, just email me and I'll be happy to send it along in the format of your choice with our compliments. Best wishes. Neil ... ntmarrATbewrite.net (use the @ sign)

PS: The same offer is open to our other pals here, of course, if they send me a note in the next twenty-four hours or so. Cheers. N

[afa]

Thanks for the offer, Neil. Email sent.

It certainly sounds like an interesting book. I guess great minds think alike, huh?

[neilmarr]

By the way, AFA, below is my back text to Sam's *End of Science Fiction*. If it's inappropriate in this thread, I'm sure one of our fine mods will put me right. Best wishes. Neil


***No matter how important your job ... would YOU turn up for work knowing that you and every living being on the planet will be dead before pay day?***

A beautiful young woman is brutally murdered - just as governments around the world announce that the universe will end in five days' time.

The planet Earth's 6.5 billion human beings deal with their impending extinction in 6.5 billion ways. But amid global chaos, dedicated detective Herbie Watkins stays on the case, determined to discover the killer against a merciless clock that's ticking away his own final hours.

Is he insanely obsessed, or is he the last sane man in the history of the human race?

Sam Smith weaves a unique cop story of a unique cop against a unique backdrop in a unique page-turner of a book.

No count-down novel, no disaster book, no police saga has ever been written to thrill the reader and plumb the depths of the human soul as does The End of Science Fiction. It is the last word in SF and crime ... and much more.

You will read The End of Science Fiction over and over again, asking new and challenging questions of yourself and formulating new answers every time you re-open this outstanding work from the pen of an author who demands one-sitting novel reading.

Shortlisted for a Science Fiction EPPIE


PS: Thanks for the email, AFA. Your book should be with you now at the gmail address. Happy reading. Neil

[PKFFW]

As a starting point I think I'd choose not to do anything to anyone else that I would not like done to me.

Why? Common courtesy if for no other reason. And whilst there may be no repercussion to my actions there would certainly be consequences. As such there would be limits to what I would be willing to do.

Cheers,
PKFFW
P.S: Neil, I have sent an email regarding End of Science Fiction

[Sweetpea]

I wonder how much of your actions are actually governed by repercussions and how much are influenced by your upbringing.

I don't think morals can be simply turned off. If you can't envision yourself, as you are now (not in rage or any other stressed condition), doing those things, why do you think you could do them if you knew there was only a few days left?

Besides, how can you 100% sure that it will be the end of it all? Wouldn't you always keep a doubt that they might be wrong? And that the world wouldn't come to an end?

(and expect my email to come along, neilmarr, that story sounds interresting!)

[dsvick]

I think repercussions or punishment have less and less motivation in older people who have developed a correct (socially acceptable) sense of what is right and wrong. The repercussion part is a useful teaching tool that can be applied to anyone while they develop the desired thought patterns - unfortunately society is full of people sitting in jail who can't seem to get it right

As for what I do...

I don't think I'd do anything directly to a specific person like murder, rape, stealing, vandalism, etc. I would certainly stop paying my bills and going to work. Probably stock up on a lot of food and spend the last few days with my family.

I have to wonder though if the world would end simply because someone said it was? Sort of a self fulfilling prophesy.

[omk3]

I've read "The End of Science Fiction" and I heartily recommend it for how it portrays different people's reactions to an imminent end.

A brilliant film describing the same thing is the Canadian "Last Night". It made me think a lot when I first saw it. Find it and watch it if you can, it's worth it.

I'm sure I would not face many moral dilemmas in such a scenario. My morality is my own, not the law's, and I would never hurt another human being (or animal, personally that is, because I do eat meat), even if they were to die anyway five minutes later. I'm not even sure if it can be called morality or maybe ...squeamishness. Say someone was suffering, and asking me to end it, I still wouldn't. But anyway, that's a completely different discussion.

I would get rid of my boring day-to-day affairs, like dsvick, like paying bills or going to work. If I had taken on something voluntarily though, I might still finish it, if I thought the person that was waiting for it still cared. I guess responsibility fades away as slowly as morality.

What it comes down to, I think, is why you do things. Do your actions lose their meaning when there is no future? Or is it irrelevant?

What I would find a real problem, is who to spend the last day with. We all have loved ones scattered everywhere. Parents, lovers, children, friends. And each of them have their own network of loved ones. How to combine them? Who to see and who to ignore? Who to say a proper goodbye to?

Oddly enough, when I watched Last Night I did not feel panic, or hopelessness, I felt relief... To have it all simultaneously end for everyone rids us of all the anxiety - both the everyday kind, and the fear and loneliness of death. Very strange feeling.

Okay, this was a more serious post than I intended
I'll stop now!

(Edit) Oh, morality that is imposed rather than internal I would get rid of. I might go out naked, for instance. I might also try dangerous things, as I wouldn't have much to risk. Dangerous to myself, that is. Drugs, really extreme sports, I don't know. There's so much freedom when there's no future.

[neilmarr]

Neat post, Omk. And thanks for the thumbs-up on *The End of Science Fiction*. Everyone who asked for the book should now have it. The offer remains open as long as this thread is active.

On a personal note, I've certainly never been influenced by alleged religious codes of 'morality' and have never refrained from what I'd consider wrong-doing because of possible legal repurcussions and punishment.

This doesn't make me anyone special and certainly doesn't mean that there aren't things in my past that now shame me.

Much of what we consider 'morality' is hard-wired into us through evolution and is about group well-being as much as personal survival. Also, some stuff is just not cricket according to what we learned at our mothers' knees and by the good example of others as we matured.

The 'golden rule' outdates the gospels by thousands of years. The inbread desire to do no harm and to hope others will reciprocate is natural. It is behaviour to the contrary that's out of the norm.

A week to live? I think I'd try to contact everyone I know to express my love and appreciation (by phone and email because landmail wouldn't arrive in time with the French postal service handling it) ... and then I'd settle down with a bottle of good malt whisky and my knock-out wife, and re-run all my old Star Trek movies for as long as is left. Might even finish painting the bathroom.

Cheers. Neil

[EowynCarter]

On a personal note, I've certainly never been influenced by alleged religious codes of 'morality'

You think ?
Religion will affect culture, and thus these notions of "wrong" or "right".

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Everyone who asked for the book should now have it. The offer remains open as long as this thread is active.

Thanks neil, that's really generous of you, I've sent my request!

I think the biggest problem with the scenario afa proposes is that, if everyone in the world knew the end was nigh, basic services would pretty rapidly break down. If you didn't get out and get to the grocery store pretty quickly to buy your food, you would have to end up stealing it as there would be no one working at the store to accept your payment. There would be many other instances of that too - how would you get gas for your vehicle?

We'd all end up living in a very narrow, compared to today, little world the last couple of days.

[phenomshel]

I'm with Dave, I'd stop paying my bills and stop going to work.

[afa]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Much of what we consider 'morality' is hard-wired into us through evolution and is about group well-being as much as personal survival.

I think this latter is an important point. Morality is, indeed, for the collective of mankind. It's a social thing, in essence attempting to ensure that we all just... get along.

But I'm not sure about the hard-wired part. If by that you mean that morality is innate, then I don't know if I would agree. I think our morality has a lot to do with external factors. Education, upbringing, environment, society, Mother Goose fairy tales, etc. We're not taught to scream and cry as infants, but we do. That's hard-wired into us. But if we have to be taught morals and ethics, then clearly, it must not be something we're born with.

It's something we acquire. Forget about the time-frame. One week or one century. If one takes away the above sources, would we still have morality? Or would we go around pillaging and plundering?

[neilmarr]

There are some scholarly books and many essays that suggest hard-wiring of basic ethical codes, Afa. Unless you're of the scholarly type yourself (I'm not), popular reading on the subject can be found from Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett and there was a long article a year or so in the excellent Skeptical Enquirer. Earlier work on the evolution of ethics I remember from Desmond Morris. Zoological study is stiff with examples of 'tribal' and individual 'morality' in animals, especially in our fellow primates. Cheers. Neil

[FizzyWater]

I don't really think there's a direct tie between "morality" (which I see as personal value judgments, whether religious or humanistic) and "fear of repercussions".

I don't think people would generally just toss their basic value system because the world is going to end. But I think many would do things they wouldn't do everyday, with the fear of repercussions removed.

I could imagine maxing out my credit card and visiting some of the places around the world I've always wanted to see, but couldn't afford. Who would it hurt? (Assuming the banking system didn't completely collapse, of course). Or seeking out a lover without worrying about his sexual past. And I certainly can't imagine going back to work for those last seven days! (My job benefits no one but corporate America...might feel differently if I were a medical worker, for example).

And Neil, if the offer is still open, I'll gladly send an email for your offered book - thanks!