Sad Sigil news?

Toxaris · 09-16-2013, 02:58 PM

On the Sigil development blog I read the following story: http://sigildev.blogspot.nl/2013/09/sigil-status.html

I am not quite sure where this will lead, but it does not sound too good.

DiapDealer · 09-16-2013, 04:04 PM

I'll be honest: I'm surprised it saw as much development as it did after the hand-off from its creator. That's not intended as an insult to the current management or recent contributors -- quite the contrary, actually. It's hard for a one-man (basically) project to survive a creator-ectomy. Obviously I hope Sigil can buck the long odds and thrive, but it may not be in the cards.

canpolat · 09-16-2013, 05:24 PM

I really hope Sigil survives. I'm not aware of its roadmapi but I don't think we need a lot of features to be added. Just having a maintenance team to keep it up-to-date would be enough for most people, I believe.

Hitch · 09-16-2013, 06:11 PM

This is bad. Really, really bad. I have a lot to say about this, but I don't think I can say it in public.

Hitch

mrmikel · 09-16-2013, 06:59 PM

John has a full time job in software. I'm just glad he stuck with it as long as he has, which has brought to its current very useable state.

I hope someone will come out of the woodwork with the interest and determination to carry it on.

Hitch · 09-16-2013, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmikel

John has a full time job in software. I'm just glad he stuck with it as long as he has, which has brought to its current very useable state.

I hope someone will come out of the woodwork with the interest and determination to carry it on.

Y'know, mrmikel:

I tend to think that if anyone was going to come out of the woodwork, they already would have. The entire issue is that Sigil is OS and free; the developers are paid via contributions, solely.

At this point, it would be smarter, in my humble opinion, to make Sigil a paid product, and get it supported that way, instead of "catch as catch can." While Calibre may be supported wonderfully well, that's because it's brainless to use (no offense to Kovid, Calibre's developers/contributors, etc.). Sigil requires someone to use it who understands it. If you get tens of thousands of downloads of Calibre, and some small percentage of those contribute $5, it's a far cry from a a few thousand downloads of Sigil, 98% of whom abandon it as soon as they realize it's not a word-processor, and then some last remaining percentage of that 2% actually making contributions. John of course doesn't want to dedicate all this time, particularly for nothing or near-nothing.

Either that, or maybe we need to crowdsource it, IF we could all agree (and I don't see that happening, either) about what needs doing. The vast majority of the requests--not counting the nuttier ones--that we see are all aimed at making Sigil a word-processor that magically makes ePUBs--basically, Jutoh. Many of the more-serious users, (yes, I'm speaking about my company, specifically) don't want word-processing functions, we want things that will make the creation of quality ePUBS easier, not "click for styles" or what-have you.

I'm pondering a fork for our own use. I had figured that this would happen, but I didn't think it would be quite this soon. I'd hoped that more contributors, of both kinds, would step up and keep it going. DAMN.

Hitch

crich70 · 09-16-2013, 10:42 PM

I can see where it might be harder to make upgrades while balancing every day life. I just hope it doesn't just vanish off the net some day due to it not being updated on a regular basis. It is a very useful program.

roger64 · 09-17-2013, 12:56 AM

Hi

I don't know if some statistics are needed now but here they are. The contributors graph underline clearly the loneliness John Schember is experimenting specially from the beginning of this year.

http://www.ohloh.net/p/compare?metri...ect_2=calibre#

What else? thank him for the huge work already done and for the current "life support" he still accepts to provide, because Sigil is now a very advanced piece of software (thank him also for the already achieved reliance of Sigil on Qt5, which is still a goal for many other open source projects)

EowynCarter · 09-17-2013, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitch

Y'know, mrmikel:

I tend to think that if anyone was going to come out of the woodwork, they already would have. The entire issue is that Sigil is OS and free; the developers are paid via contributions, solely.

At this point, it would be smarter, in my humble opinion, to make Sigil a paid product, and get it supported that way, instead of "catch as catch can." While Calibre may be supported wonderfully well, that's because it's brainless to use (no offense to Kovid, Calibre's developers/contributors, etc.). Sigil requires someone to use it who understands it. If you get tens of thousands of downloads of Calibre, and some small percentage of those contribute $5, it's a far cry from a a few thousand downloads of Sigil, 98% of whom abandon it as soon as they realize it's not a word-processor, and then some last remaining percentage of that 2% actually making contributions. John of course doesn't want to dedicate all this time, particularly for nothing or near-nothing.

Either that, or maybe we need to crowdsource it, IF we could all agree (and I don't see that happening, either) about what needs doing. The vast majority of the requests--not counting the nuttier ones--that we see are all aimed at making Sigil a word-processor that magically makes ePUBs--basically, Jutoh. Many of the more-serious users, (yes, I'm speaking about my company, specifically) don't want word-processing functions, we want things that will make the creation of quality ePUBS easier, not "click for styles" or what-have you.

I'm pondering a fork for our own use. I had figured that this would happen, but I didn't think it would be quite this soon. I'd hoped that more contributors, of both kinds, would step up and keep it going. DAMN.

Hitch

Why a fork? Unless you want to make development people will not approve of?

Even in the worse case scenario, Sigil won't suddenly become unusable. And code is still there for people to change.

And I agree with the Jutoh / Sigil comparison. It's nice to have both.

mrmikel · 09-17-2013, 09:03 AM

How many active users are there, I wonder? As you said Hitch, a number of people try it and don't like it because it is not, nor should it be, a word processor. In the trying process they do seem to consume a lot of support time.
How many $/each would it take to make it paying given the active users?

But I get the impression from the blog, that the problem is that John doesn't want to make this full time (if that is possible in the first place.) That seems to be the main sticking point. Being written in C, from what I can tell, makes it more work than calibre, which is written in python. This may have limited the number of helpers.

Making it paid will keep out of some of the truly lazy but in some people's minds, it will ENTITLE them to support in their "I don't want to learn HTML/CSS/Regex" whine. This is not a simple problem.

DAMN is right.

Rizla · 09-17-2013, 09:18 AM

Other than adding headers, titles, page-breaks and chapters, etc, I don't see the point in Sigil. I'm not being provocative, I just really can't see what else it does. Everything else can be done prior to formatting to epub, and adding chapters, etc, *should* be a fairly trivial process. Anyway, I assume I'm wrong about this. So what else does it do?

theducks · 09-17-2013, 09:50 AM

I see Sigil as more of a cleanup or (re)finishing tool.
Time and again, I see Calibre conversion questions from people trying to find a 'magic' whatever setting/Xpath term to get the import/conversion right.

It is usually a trivial (and less time consuming) job if they would just use Sigil post-conversion to make the final adjustments.

Toxaris · 09-17-2013, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizla

Other than adding headers, titles, page-breaks and chapters, etc, I don't see the point in Sigil. I'm not being provocative, I just really can't see what else it does. Everything else can be done prior to formatting to epub, and adding chapters, etc, *should* be a fairly trivial process. Anyway, I assume I'm wrong about this. So what else does it do?

Sigil is not about the headers, chapters, etc at all. In fact, it enables you to do things you cannot do prior to formatting the ePUB. It gives you full control on how the ePUB should and will look like by opening up the document. This with still a fairly simple interface.
Of course you can code an ePUB by hand, but that will take much more time. There is no other product out there with the same capabilities nor control. There are a lot of features not found in other tools and the RegEx functionality is very useful.

DiapDealer · 09-17-2013, 10:00 AM

Splitting, joining, reporting, regex "groups" that can be run sequentially. Clearly if you don't need anything like that, it still won't convince you, but it offers -- under one roof -- that which otherwise may require multiple apps to achieve. Not to mention that many platforms' included zip utilities are simply incapable of properly creating a valid epub container. Flightcrew provides error checking for when your eyes just can't find the error.

You're right that it doesn't do anything I couldn't do myself with other apps/tools... but it sure does a hell of a lot of things I don't want to have to do by hand (or run through seven different editors to achieve).

mrmikel · 09-17-2013, 10:34 AM

Rizla, you are right about one thing. If all you ever do are simple things from scratch you do not not need Sigil. You might as well use AWP which does a fine job in that kind of application and AWP allows you to do things not so easily done in Sigil.

HOWEVER, if you have to clean up messy pdf conversions, make sure that particular formatting works in multiple devices or anything out of the ordinary, then Sigil is your software. Its aim has always been for higher level use, not a replacement for word processors. This niche although discussed at length here has not been understood by many people.

Unfortunately, this invaluable function is not needed by everyone any more than a surgeon's scalpel is needed by the average household. As I would rather have surgery done with a surgeon's scalpel rather than a meat cleaver, I'd rather work on epubs with Sigil than fight to make a word processor/text editor do what Sigil does easily IF you understand some HTML and CSS.

09-16-2013, 02:58 PM	#1
Toxaris Wizard Posts: 4,520 Karma: 121692313 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Heemskerk, NL Device: PRS-T1, Kobo Touch, Kobo Aura	Sad Sigil news? On the Sigil development blog I read the following story: http://sigildev.blogspot.nl/2013/09/sigil-status.html I am not quite sure where this will lead, but it does not sound too good.

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09-16-2013, 04:04 PM	#2
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,039 Karma: 199464182 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I'll be honest: I'm surprised it saw as much development as it did after the hand-off from its creator. That's not intended as an insult to the current management or recent contributors -- quite the contrary, actually. It's hard for a one-man (basically) project to survive a creator-ectomy. Obviously I hope Sigil can buck the long odds and thrive, but it may not be in the cards.

09-16-2013, 05:24 PM	#3
canpolat Connoisseur Posts: 92 Karma: 17950 Join Date: Mar 2013 Device: Xodo	I really hope Sigil survives. I'm not aware of its roadmapi but I don't think we need a lot of features to be added. Just having a maintenance team to keep it up-to-date would be enough for most people, I believe.

09-16-2013, 06:11 PM	#4
Hitch Bookmaker & Cat Slave Posts: 11,494 Karma: 158448243 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Phoenix, AZ Device: K2, iPad, KFire, PPW, Voyage, NookColor. 2 Droid, Oasis, Boox Note2	This is bad. Really, really bad. I have a lot to say about this, but I don't think I can say it in public. Hitch

09-16-2013, 06:59 PM	#5
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	John has a full time job in software. I'm just glad he stuck with it as long as he has, which has brought to its current very useable state. I hope someone will come out of the woodwork with the interest and determination to carry it on.

09-16-2013, 10:42 PM	#7
crich70 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,309 Karma: 43993832 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Monroe Wisconsin Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)	I can see where it might be harder to make upgrades while balancing every day life. I just hope it doesn't just vanish off the net some day due to it not being updated on a regular basis. It is a very useful program.

09-17-2013, 12:56 AM	#8
roger64 Wizard Posts: 2,608 Karma: 3000161 Join Date: Jan 2009 Device: Kindle PW3 (wifi)	Hi I don't know if some statistics are needed now but here they are. The contributors graph underline clearly the loneliness John Schember is experimenting specially from the beginning of this year. http://www.ohloh.net/p/compare?metri...ect_2=calibre# What else? thank him for the huge work already done and for the current "life support" he still accepts to provide, because Sigil is now a very advanced piece of software (thank him also for the already achieved reliance of Sigil on Qt5, which is still a goal for many other open source projects)

09-17-2013, 09:03 AM	#10
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	How many active users are there, I wonder? As you said Hitch, a number of people try it and don't like it because it is not, nor should it be, a word processor. In the trying process they do seem to consume a lot of support time. How many $/each would it take to make it paying given the active users? But I get the impression from the blog, that the problem is that John doesn't want to make this full time (if that is possible in the first place.) That seems to be the main sticking point. Being written in C, from what I can tell, makes it more work than calibre, which is written in python. This may have limited the number of helpers. Making it paid will keep out of some of the truly lazy but in some people's minds, it will ENTITLE them to support in their "I don't want to learn HTML/CSS/Regex" whine. This is not a simple problem. DAMN is right.

09-17-2013, 09:18 AM	#11
Rizla Member Retired Posts: 3,183 Karma: 11721895 Join Date: Nov 2010 Device: Nook STR (rooted) & Sony T2	Other than adding headers, titles, page-breaks and chapters, etc, I don't see the point in Sigil. I'm not being provocative, I just really can't see what else it does. Everything else can be done prior to formatting to epub, and adding chapters, etc, should be a fairly trivial process. Anyway, I assume I'm wrong about this. So what else does it do?

09-17-2013, 09:50 AM	#12
theducks Well trained by Cats Posts: 30,441 Karma: 58055868 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Central Coast of California Device: Kobo Libra2,Kobo Aura2v1, K4NT(Fixed: New Bat.), Galaxy Tab A	I see Sigil as more of a cleanup or (re)finishing tool. Time and again, I see Calibre conversion questions from people trying to find a 'magic' whatever setting/Xpath term to get the import/conversion right. It is usually a trivial (and less time consuming) job if they would just use Sigil post-conversion to make the final adjustments.

09-17-2013, 10:00 AM	#14
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,039 Karma: 199464182 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	Splitting, joining, reporting, regex "groups" that can be run sequentially. Clearly if you don't need anything like that, it still won't convince you, but it offers -- under one roof -- that which otherwise may require multiple apps to achieve. Not to mention that many platforms' included zip utilities are simply incapable of properly creating a valid epub container. Flightcrew provides error checking for when your eyes just can't find the error. You're right that it doesn't do anything I couldn't do myself with other apps/tools... but it sure does a hell of a lot of things I don't want to have to do by hand (or run through seven different editors to achieve).

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09-17-2013, 10:34 AM	#15
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	Rizla, you are right about one thing. If all you ever do are simple things from scratch you do not not need Sigil. You might as well use AWP which does a fine job in that kind of application and AWP allows you to do things not so easily done in Sigil. HOWEVER, if you have to clean up messy pdf conversions, make sure that particular formatting works in multiple devices or anything out of the ordinary, then Sigil is your software. Its aim has always been for higher level use, not a replacement for word processors. This niche although discussed at length here has not been understood by many people. Unfortunately, this invaluable function is not needed by everyone any more than a surgeon's scalpel is needed by the average household. As I would rather have surgery done with a surgeon's scalpel rather than a meat cleaver, I'd rather work on epubs with Sigil than fight to make a word processor/text editor do what Sigil does easily IF you understand some HTML and CSS.