Idiotic writers...

HarryT · 08-14-2009, 09:36 AM

This one had me in stitches (no pun intended)...

Quote:

As the US healthcare debate hots up during Congress's summer recess, anti-reform campaigners have been directing criticisms across the Atlantic at the UK healthcare system.

The most recent row erupted after an editorial at the Investors Business Daily (IBD) launched an attack on the British National Health Service (NHS), as a warning against what could happen if the US adopted such a model.

"The controlling of medical costs in countries such as Britain through rationing, and the health consequences thereof are legendary," the article said. "The stories of people dying on a waiting list or being denied altogether read like a horror movie script."

The article's author went on to assert that "people such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."

Someone then quietly pointed out to him that Stephen Hawking is British, has lived in Britain his entire life, and gets pretty much all his medical treatment via the NHS

.

Classic...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8198084.stm

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-14-2009, 09:51 AM

It's amazing the over-emotional furor that's developed over this particular issue... and out of so many issues that are more deserving of everyone's attention. But what's most amazing is this trend to bypassing reasonable and practical arguments about an issue, and jumping straight into the finger-stabbing, bible-thumping "You're killing my grandmother!" rhetoric.

Maybe we should take that tack with e-books vs paper books: "That paper book just got a rabbit killed!"

rhadin · 08-14-2009, 10:22 AM

The false assertions we are hearing made about the proposed healthcare overhaul are a natural consequence of the need for the birthers (those who deny that Barack Obama was born in the U.S.) to grow from being foolish looking to truly being foolish.

Most interesting, along with the Hawkings example Harry cited, is the Republican-conservative attack on the proposed plans on the basis of legislated "death panels" (forcing euthanasia of the elderly and infirm). The original proposer of this particular legislation that is being attacked is a Republican-conservative senator. I guess the plot to kill America's elderly and infirm isn't really a Democrat-liberal plot but a Republican-conservative plot.

One would think a drug addict like Rush Limbaugh would love to have a national health plan. He wouldn't have to pay out of pocket to feed his habit -- his fellow taxpayers could support him.

kwjones · 08-14-2009, 10:50 AM

Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals"

"Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It's hard to counterattack ridicule and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it. Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy."

"Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions."

Greg Anos · 08-14-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhadin

The false assertions we are hearing made about the proposed healthcare overhaul are a natural consequence of the need for the birthers (those who deny that Barack Obama was born in the U.S.) to grow from being foolish looking to truly being foolish.

Most interesting, along with the Hawkings example Harry cited, is the Republican-conservative attack on the proposed plans on the basis of legislated "death panels" (forcing euthanasia of the elderly and infirm). The original proposer of this particular legislation that is being attacked is a Republican-conservative senator. I guess the plot to kill America's elderly and infirm isn't really a Democrat-liberal plot but a Republican-conservative plot.

One would think a drug addict like Rush Limbaugh would love to have a national health plan. He wouldn't have to pay out of pocket to feed his habit -- his fellow taxpayers could support him.

Well, he'd pay a lot more in taxes than he pays for his habit (or for rehab)...

Nate the great · 08-14-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhadin

The false assertions we are hearing made about the proposed healthcare overhaul are a natural consequence of the need for the birthers (those who deny that Barack Obama was born in the U.S.) to grow from being foolish looking to truly being foolish.

Most interesting, along with the Hawkings example Harry cited, is the Republican-conservative attack on the proposed plans on the basis of legislated "death panels" (forcing euthanasia of the elderly and infirm). The original proposer of this particular legislation that is being attacked is a Republican-conservative senator. I guess the plot to kill America's elderly and infirm isn't really a Democrat-liberal plot but a Republican-conservative plot.

One would think a drug addict like Rush Limbaugh would love to have a national health plan. He wouldn't have to pay out of pocket to feed his habit -- his fellow taxpayers could support him.

I don't know why people make up stuff about Obama's health care plan, The real details are scary enough that there is no need to lie.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-14-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate the great

I don't know why people make up stuff about Obama's health care plan, The real details are scary enough that there is no need to lie.

What details? There's no "plan" yet! That's why they make stuff up... it's easier to attack something that doesn't exist. And they clearly won't be able to say the plan will be "forced on everyone," after it comes out and it's clear people have the choice to say no.

kwjones · 08-14-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

What details? There's no "plan" yet! That's why they make stuff up... it's easier to attack something that doesn't exist. And they clearly won't be able to say the plan will be "forced on everyone," after it comes out and it's clear people have the choice to say no.

You're right, there's not details at all...

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:h3200ih.pdf

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-14-2009, 02:47 PM

And this is how it has been enacted into law? With no possibility of further revision? Is it in effect?

Nate the great · 08-14-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

What details? There's no "plan" yet! That's why they make stuff up... it's easier to attack something that doesn't exist. And they clearly won't be able to say the plan will be "forced on everyone," after it comes out and it's clear people have the choice to say no.

It more or less says that. Go look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

And this is how it has been enacted into law? With no possibility of further revision? Is it in effect?

It has not yet been enacted, not. But it is still his _plan_ of what he wants to accomplish.

lilac_jive · 08-14-2009, 02:59 PM

That's excellent! I loved some clips about people saying it would make America communist, but quite a few countries have this and are in no way communist.

By the way, I don't support it. At least not right now. Still funny as hell though

pking36330 · 08-14-2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwjones

Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals"

"Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It's hard to counterattack ridicule and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it. Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy."

"Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions."

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhadin

The false assertions we are hearing made about the proposed healthcare overhaul are a natural consequence of the need for the birthers (those who deny that Barack Obama was born in the U.S.) to grow from being foolish looking to truly being foolish.

Most interesting, along with the Hawkings example Harry cited, is the Republican-conservative attack on the proposed plans on the basis of legislated "death panels" (forcing euthanasia of the elderly and infirm). The original proposer of this particular legislation that is being attacked is a Republican-conservative senator. I guess the plot to kill America's elderly and infirm isn't really a Democrat-liberal plot but a Republican-conservative plot.

One would think a drug addict like Rush Limbaugh would love to have a national health plan. He wouldn't have to pay out of pocket to feed his habit -- his fellow taxpayers could support him.

kwjones, I agree with you that the left is using Alinsky's rules to try and ridicule the people who have a problem with the proposed changes to medical insurance because they know their plan being proposed won't survive honest debate. Its far easier to pick on Rush and others who don't agree with this being rammed down their throats than explain how we can afford it and how it would dramatically change healthcare delivery for the worse for most Americans.

kwjones · 08-14-2009, 03:54 PM

"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say, we are Americans and we have a right to disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton

pshrynk · 08-14-2009, 04:26 PM

My understanding of the proposals' main points are that the government will establish a helath plan that will be available for those without insurance for a price thatcan be afforded, thereby causing the insurance companies to cut their profits and compete more reasonably and they will not be allowed to continue the "cherry picking" of healthy patients to maximize profits and minimzize the payouts. That's what President Obama is trying to get out there. All the other stuff is really politics as usual, with lots of stuff being thrown in to get votes for passage.

vivaldirules · 08-14-2009, 04:52 PM

What I feel most uncomfortable about it is.....everything. The irrational discourse from all sides, the levels of fear among the vast majority who can only sit back and watch it all happen, and most of all the almost complete lack of knowledgable sources who we can rely on to understand the current and proposed systems but don't have some finger in the pie or some bias about the outcome. Basically, no matter what happens, whether the coming changes to our health care system are large, small, or even nonexistant from the status quo, we're gonna get screwed. This now seems to be the standard operating procedure for changes that are made through Congress. I recall the days decades ago when bipartisan committees would go away and spend real time working on real changes and, although politics played a part in what happened, there was often (or sometimes) something sensible in the way it was handled. In the past decade there's been little of that and it now seems to have almost entirely disappeared.

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08-14-2009, 09:51 AM	#2
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	It's amazing the over-emotional furor that's developed over this particular issue... and out of so many issues that are more deserving of everyone's attention. But what's most amazing is this trend to bypassing reasonable and practical arguments about an issue, and jumping straight into the finger-stabbing, bible-thumping "You're killing my grandmother!" rhetoric. Maybe we should take that tack with e-books vs paper books: "That paper book just got a rabbit killed!"

08-14-2009, 10:22 AM	#3
rhadin Literacy = Understanding Posts: 4,833 Karma: 59674358 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: The World of Books Device: Nook, Nook Tablet	The false assertions we are hearing made about the proposed healthcare overhaul are a natural consequence of the need for the birthers (those who deny that Barack Obama was born in the U.S.) to grow from being foolish looking to truly being foolish. Most interesting, along with the Hawkings example Harry cited, is the Republican-conservative attack on the proposed plans on the basis of legislated "death panels" (forcing euthanasia of the elderly and infirm). The original proposer of this particular legislation that is being attacked is a Republican-conservative senator. I guess the plot to kill America's elderly and infirm isn't really a Democrat-liberal plot but a Republican-conservative plot. One would think a drug addict like Rush Limbaugh would love to have a national health plan. He wouldn't have to pay out of pocket to feed his habit -- his fellow taxpayers could support him.

08-14-2009, 10:50 AM	#4
kwjones Groupie Posts: 178 Karma: 1546 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Rising Sun, MD Device: Sony PRS-505; Motorola Droid	Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It's hard to counterattack ridicule and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage." "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it. Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy." "Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions."

08-14-2009, 02:47 PM	#9
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	And this is how it has been enacted into law? With no possibility of further revision? Is it in effect?

08-14-2009, 02:59 PM	#11
lilac_jive Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,870 Karma: 27376 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Device: PRS-505	That's excellent! I loved some clips about people saying it would make America communist, but quite a few countries have this and are in no way communist. By the way, I don't support it. At least not right now. Still funny as hell though

08-14-2009, 03:54 PM	#13
kwjones Groupie Posts: 178 Karma: 1546 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Rising Sun, MD Device: Sony PRS-505; Motorola Droid	"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say, we are Americans and we have a right to disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton

08-14-2009, 04:26 PM	#14
pshrynk Beepbeep n beebeep, yeah! Posts: 11,726 Karma: 8255450 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: La Crosse, Wisconsin, aka America's IceBox Device: iThingie, KmkII, I miss Zelda!	My understanding of the proposals' main points are that the government will establish a helath plan that will be available for those without insurance for a price thatcan be afforded, thereby causing the insurance companies to cut their profits and compete more reasonably and they will not be allowed to continue the "cherry picking" of healthy patients to maximize profits and minimzize the payouts. That's what President Obama is trying to get out there. All the other stuff is really politics as usual, with lots of stuff being thrown in to get votes for passage.

08-14-2009, 04:52 PM	#15
vivaldirules When's Doughnut Day? Posts: 10,059 Karma: 13675475 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Houston, TX, US Device: Sony PRS-505, iPad	What I feel most uncomfortable about it is.....everything. The irrational discourse from all sides, the levels of fear among the vast majority who can only sit back and watch it all happen, and most of all the almost complete lack of knowledgable sources who we can rely on to understand the current and proposed systems but don't have some finger in the pie or some bias about the outcome. Basically, no matter what happens, whether the coming changes to our health care system are large, small, or even nonexistant from the status quo, we're gonna get screwed. This now seems to be the standard operating procedure for changes that are made through Congress. I recall the days decades ago when bipartisan committees would go away and spend real time working on real changes and, although politics played a part in what happened, there was often (or sometimes) something sensible in the way it was handled. In the past decade there's been little of that and it now seems to have almost entirely disappeared.

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