PNG in KF8 yet?

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Greater compression when the sausage machine converted the GIFs into JPG?

Hitch

No idea. When I download the "HTML" version from KDP, it still shows the GIFs. Guess we'll see when the book is released.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Peter Ahlstrom

Still haven't heard back from my contact. But I did an experiment with KDP.

For the book we're releasing next week, I made a KDP-only version with images 1200 pixels wide. I made both a version with PNGs and a version with GIFs. (The only difference is the file format; neither has transparency, etc.) Then I uploaded them and let them process. Here are the results.

PNG version:
4.3 MB
After conversion: 4.28 MB
Delivery fee: $0.64

GIF version:
4.6 MB
After conversion: 3.83 MB
Delivery fee: $0.57

I wonder why the larger file came out smaller...

Which version are you releasing?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Peter Ahlstrom

No idea. When I download the "HTML" version from KDP, it still shows the GIFs. Guess we'll see when the book is released.

I could be on drugs, (not really!), but AFAIK, I don't think I've ever seen an "in-the-wild" MOBI/AZW, etc., with anything but JPGs.

I mean...now, to be fair, I'm not in the trenches like my guys. Last full ebook I made was more years ago than I want to say, but I thought that was the deal? Everything, absolutely everything, is converted to JPG, no?

Anybody?

Hitch

[Quoth]

The only way to see what KDP does is to buy the published book on different kinds of kindles, both by My Content & Devices download & "direct". AFAIK there is no KDP download that accurately previews the real azw/mobi, azw3 or KFX. Clue is you can't pick device. It's only telling you much if you mistakenly uploaded docx instead of epub!

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I could be on drugs, (not really!), but AFAIK, I don't think I've ever seen an "in-the-wild" MOBI/AZW, etc., with anything but JPGs.

I mean...now, to be fair, I'm not in the trenches like my guys. Last full ebook I made was more years ago than I want to say, but I thought that was the deal? Everything, absolutely everything, is converted to JPG, no?

Anybody?

Hitch

The last couple of books I got from amazon converted color PNG to JPEG and grayscale PNG to GIF. (I bought the EPUBs to know what the source was, since they were cheap, this also let me know how much the dimensions were shrunk. Some of the shrunk images are larger than some input images that also got shrunk. I guess amazon is determined to reduce quality.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

The only way to see what KDP does is to buy the published book on different kinds of kindles, both by My Content & Devices download & "direct". AFAIK there is no KDP download that accurately previews the real azw/mobi, azw3 or KFX. Clue is you can't pick device. It's only telling you much if you mistakenly uploaded docx instead of epub!

Yes, I agree, you have to buy the "real" in the wild book. No way around it.

I have had some success with downloading free samples, at least. Not often, but sometimes.

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

The last couple of books I got from amazon converted color PNG to JPEG and grayscale PNG to GIF. (I bought the EPUBs to know what the source was, since they were cheap, this also let me know how much the dimensions were shrunk. Some of the shrunk images are larger than some input images that also got shrunk. I guess amazon is determined to reduce quality.)

Yabbut, are you certain that the source was the same ePUB file? We have different ePUBs, one for Amazon, one for other retailers.

Hitch

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yes, I agree, you have to buy the "real" in the wild book. No way around it.

I have had some success with downloading free samples, at least. Not often, but sometimes.

Hitch

I used to do that, but now they have vanished. Only the nearly useless "look inside" which doesn't match any eink Kindle view?

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yabbut, are you certain that the source was the same ePUB file? We have different ePUBs, one for Amazon, one for other retailers.

Hitch

Big publishers seem to do mad stuff too. We are lazy, so formatting is simple and KDP get the same epub as others. I see mad stuff in azw3 I've never seen in epubs.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yabbut, are you certain that the source was the same ePUB file? We have different ePUBs, one for Amazon, one for other retailers.

Hitch

No, but since the image quality tends to be so much better, I'm going to be buying epub versions of illustrated books that I already have as they go on sale. That should be enough to build or tear down a circumstatial case. I've seen plenty of amazon sold books with complete page number info with no amazon supplied apnx so I think that is evidence in favor.

Of course if authors, publishers, etc would provide data points, that would be great.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I used to do that, but now they have vanished. Only the nearly useless "look inside" which doesn't match any eink Kindle view?

The LITB (LookInsideTheBook) is basically the Kindle Cloud REader view--no fonts, nuthin' fancy. It's effectively the old KF7.

Originally Posted by Quoth

Big publishers seem to do mad stuff too. We are lazy, so formatting is simple and KDP get the same epub as others. I see mad stuff in azw3 I've never seen in epubs.

Yes, but we like our customers' fonts and they do too, and we do a crap-ton of non-fiction; tables, charts, figures, you-name-it, and we use media queries for those so that they work as well as possible on the various devices. We can't give an ePUB with MQ's in it to a customer for use everywhere, as you know, so...two files. At my shop, there ain't One EPUB to Rule Them All! I mean, sure, some novels, yes. But for our rather extensive non-fiction group? Not so much.

Originally Posted by j.p.s

No, but since the image quality tends to be so much better, I'm going to be buying epub versions of illustrated books that I already have as they go on sale. That should be enough to build or tear down a circumstatial case. I've seen plenty of amazon sold books with complete page number info with no amazon supplied apnx so I think that is evidence in favor.

Of course if authors, publishers, etc would provide data points, that would be great.

I am DYING to see the results of this. I literally cannot remember if we all already knew that PNGs were being converted to GIFS, or not? I don't think we all knew that. Or hell, maybe I did and simply forgot. I know that we (my shop) tend to use PNGs for charts, figures, and the like. And if we knew or suspected that those were being converted to GIFS, that would make the most sense. And yes, of course, we also use GIFs when feasible.

The page number info? You can create your own "RPNs" or "real page numbers" through the process of using anchors, links, etc. and I know for a fact that those work in the in-the-wild eBook. We used to create a real page index, at the very back of the book, for Amazon to use but at some point in time (2016?) that seemed to become unnecessary and redundant.

Hitch

[Quoth]

We can't give an ePUB with MQ's in it to a customer for use everywhere, as you know, so...two files. At my shop, there ain't One EPUB to Rule Them All! I mean, sure, some novels, yes. But for our rather extensive non-fiction group? Not so much.

Ah, well, we stick to stories. Minimal illustration too, if not often none. Though we do embed fonts, but make sure the book is still fine without them. I can see how some sorts of books need MQ.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I am DYING to see the results of this. I literally cannot remember if we all already knew that PNGs were being converted to GIFS, or not? I don't think we all knew that. Or hell, maybe I did and simply forgot. I know that we (my shop) tend to use PNGs for charts, figures, and the like. And if we knew or suspected that those were being converted to GIFS, that would make the most sense. And yes, of course, we also use GIFs when feasible.

It looks to me like amazon converts color PNGs get converted to JPEG and grascale GIFs get converted to fixed pallette GIFs

The page number info? You can create your own "RPNs" or "real page numbers" through the process of using anchors, links, etc. and I know for a fact that those work in the in-the-wild eBook. We used to create a real page index, at the very back of the book, for Amazon to use but at some point in time (2016?) that seemed to become unnecessary and redundant.

Hitch

That's what I meant, the amazon books without apnx had all the page number anchors. Different publishers use radically different formats and nomenclatures in the anchors. "Different publishers" includes different imprints in the same house.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Ah, well, we stick to stories. Minimal illustration too, if not often none. Though we do embed fonts, but make sure the book is still fine without them. I can see how some sorts of books need MQ.

Well, we do a ton of non-fiction; textbooks with boxes, charts, tables...the list is endless and you really do need MQ's for those, IMHO.

Originally Posted by j.p.s

It looks to me like amazon converts color PNGs get converted to JPEG and grascale GIFs get converted to fixed pallette GIFs

Hmmm....there's a gem!

That's what I meant, the amazon books without apnx had all the page number anchors. Different publishers use radically different formats and nomenclatures in the anchors. "Different publishers" includes different imprints in the same house.

I cannot tell a lie--we embed the RPNs as anchors, using the ever-so-tricky "page" nomenclature (smile), and we tell the customer to inform Amazon that the book has RPNs, that match the print book up for sale on their site and to 'turn on" RPNs, and so far...that's worked.

(n.b.: you must have the matching print book for-sale on Amazon, or Amazon will shrug and tell you that they 'can't' turn on RPNs. True story.)

Hitch

[robertosaenz]

Hello guys, I have one question, if I use SVG images (in an html file) for KF8/KFX devices only, they will remain reflowable after the amazon conversion? or they would be converted to JPG/GIF ?