MobileRead For the 2016 categories, as a 1st step, can we....

[caleb72]

Originally Posted by CRussel

I like the idea, but am concerned that we might need to provide a bit more lead time than "This month it's X and the survey is up." Maybe more on the order of "Next month will be X, and the survey will be up in 2 weeks."

Yep - that sounds like it would be a great idea if something like this was to be trialed. But it's just a fun idea.

I know that in some groups I'm a member of with Goodreads I don't know what the theme or even the nomination list is until it's voting time. I rarely participate in those because I tend to favour the Mobileread book clubs, but I did like the idea of not having a huge amount of discussion about the group and about the process month after month. I just got an email telling me it's voting time and I could vote and then read/discuss. I guess that's why I don't mind having a "Tom decides" kind of option.

Overall I think if we can just make things fun in some way that would be an improvement. issybird refers to it as collegiality, but I lack her sophistication and would just say - have a fun time chatting with each other about the book that we've read. If we feel the need to challenge each other on interpretation or perception, we do so respectfully. If we need to express dissatisfaction with a book, we do exactly that - we don't really need to insult books and authors inadvertently demeaning those who enjoy those books/authors. We present what we didn't like and why we didn't like it and that becomes a valuable contribution to the discussion.

There are a few ways in which a book can be discussed, and I think we should embrace them all. If someone is discussing a story in terms of how exciting the plot was and how he/she related to a particular character, this is just as valid as discussing the use of a particular plot device as a metaphor for some kind of societal ill being explored. The wonderful thing about novels for me is that they can be seen from so many perspectives. I remember valuing that Remains of the Day was being explained to me as a portrait of the Japanese people. This never occurred to me at all and I just thought it was an astounding portrait of an English butler that became my favourite read of that year. I really enjoyed reading the other view, but didn't feel like my appreciation was somehow invalidated. I think we should aim for a club where different appreciations of books can be embraced. I don't think anyone should feel sneered at.

This is what I look forward to seeing and experiencing in the book club regardless of what categories are selected for each month, regardless of what the nomination process is, regardless of how a mystery is different from a thriller. I just want to connect with other club members in a fun and non-judgmental way over a book I've just read.

Anyway - just a bit of a blah blah from me. It happens from time to time.

[treadlightly]

I wonder if having some open-ended questions to answer might spur discussion about the book. One month when someone mentioned their favourite character in the book it led to other posts about characters. Questions might lend a bit of structure to the conversation.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by CRussel

I could easily see us moving to all fiction (I think we're close already, and I see a lot of energy moving in that direction), but I'd very much NOT like to see no categories. The world of "fiction" is just way too broad. Without some constraints each month in the nomination process, you'd very likely see way too much similarity in the choices as a majority (or at least strong plurality) group ended up focusing the types of books and genres chosen. With categories, that's much less likely to be an issue.

Well, if Tom/everyone really likes this "Fiction" idea, we could do a hybrid, something like say half the year "Fiction" and half the year with other categories, and maybe switch back and forth from Fiction to another category month to month. And if people are still worried about older books, we could make some of the Fiction months "Modern Fiction".

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by caleb72

Yep - that sounds like it would be a great idea if something like this was to be trialed. But it's just a fun idea.

I know that in some groups I'm a member of with Goodreads I don't know what the theme or even the nomination list is until it's voting time. I rarely participate in those because I tend to favour the Mobileread book clubs, but I did like the idea of not having a huge amount of discussion about the group and about the process month after month. I just got an email telling me it's voting time and I could vote and then read/discuss. I guess that's why I don't mind having a "Tom decides" kind of option.

Overall I think if we can just make things fun in some way that would be an improvement. issybird refers to it as collegiality, but I lack her sophistication and would just say - have a fun time chatting with each other about the book that we've read. If we feel the need to challenge each other on interpretation or perception, we do so respectfully. If we need to express dissatisfaction with a book, we do exactly that - we don't really need to insult books and authors inadvertently demeaning those who enjoy those books/authors. We present what we didn't like and why we didn't like it and that becomes a valuable contribution to the discussion.

There are a few ways in which a book can be discussed, and I think we should embrace them all. If someone is discussing a story in terms of how exciting the plot was and how he/she related to a particular character, this is just as valid as discussing the use of a particular plot device as a metaphor for some kind of societal ill being explored. The wonderful thing about novels for me is that they can be seen from so many perspectives. I remember valuing that Remains of the Day was being explained to me as a portrait of the Japanese people. This never occurred to me at all and I just thought it was an astounding portrait of an English butler that became my favourite read of that year. I really enjoyed reading the other view, but didn't feel like my appreciation was somehow invalidated. I think we should aim for a club where different appreciations of books can be embraced. I don't think anyone should feel sneered at.

This is what I look forward to seeing and experiencing in the book club regardless of what categories are selected for each month, regardless of what the nomination process is, regardless of how a mystery is different from a thriller. I just want to connect with other club members in a fun and non-judgmental way over a book I've just read.

Anyway - just a bit of a blah blah from me. It happens from time to time.

Great comments, caleb! I do think you're right about serious negative criticism - it has its place but maybe that's not here in the general club. No matter how mature everyone tries to be, we all can't help but be sensitive sometimes, and with such a diverse group I can see that if among the first posts of a discussion are really negative reactions, it might scare some people off from giving their positive opinion. I mean, I'm not for turning the club into a peaches and cream lovefest where you can't dare to say you didn't like a book and I'm all for honest opinions, but maybe we should shoot for making any negative posts on a book light and respectful (if everyone's up for that, I will try, but I'll state right now that sometimes my typing fingers might get the better of me so I'll have to work at it ). I think that's especially important for a book where a lot of people don't like it or have problems with it or find it mediocre - that has the potential to create a negative atmosphere in the discussion thread that really scares anyone off from posting who actually likes the book. All that said, we have had months where everyone who posts in the discussion thread loves a book and yet it still only gets a few posts.

Other than that, I'm still not sure exactly how we can make this "fun time" happen on a long-term basis, but I think it's a terrific starting point to keep in mind for any new direction we take.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by treadlightly

I wonder if having some open-ended questions to answer might spur discussion about the book. One month when someone mentioned their favourite character in the book it led to other posts about characters. Questions might lend a bit of structure to the conversation.

Wonderful idea, treadlightly! This is my favourite thought of this thread so far. I'm not for having the Grand Muckity-Muck do extra work so they probably shouldn't be unique each month - maybe there could be a set list of questions that he could provide in the first post of the discussion thread each month, if he likes the idea too. You never know until you try it but I, like you, could see this sparking more discussion.

Originally Posted by treadlightly

I wonder if having some open-ended questions to answer might spur discussion about the book. One month when someone mentioned their favourite character in the book it led to other posts about characters. Questions might lend a bit of structure to the conversation.

That's actually an idea with merit. The two monthly book clubs at my local library are managed would be the best word by one of the library staff. Book selections just rotate among the regular members, but the woman from the library always starts the discussion with a brief synopsis of the book, some of what has been written about the book by 'professional critics,' and then some points we may wish to discuss about the book. It really does help get the discussion going. Of course when participants are all in the same room that is much easier to achieve than an Internet discussion like at MR. I'll admit that it probably does temper my sometimes acid tone versus what I am inclined to in an online discussion (getting ahead of myself a bit here). Perhaps we could suggest (not force) the person who nominated the book to start the discussion thread off here with something similar? If that were implemented it would seem likely that the discussion would at least start off positive with the nominator putting out what he or she found appealing about the book.

Originally Posted by sun surfer

Great comments, caleb! I do think you're right about serious negative criticism - it has its place but maybe that's not here in the general club. No matter how mature everyone tries to be, we all can't help but be sensitive sometimes, and with such a diverse group I can see that if among the first posts of a discussion are really negative reactions, it might scare some people off from giving their positive opinion. I mean, I'm not for turning the club into a peaches and cream lovefest where you can't dare to say you didn't like a book and I'm all for honest opinions, but maybe we should shoot for making any negative posts on a book light and respectful (if everyone's up for that, I will try, but I'll state right now that sometimes my typing fingers might get the better of me so I'll have to work at it ). I think that's especially important for a book where a lot of people don't like it or have problems with it or find it mediocre - that has the potential to create a negative atmosphere in the discussion thread that really scares anyone off from posting who actually likes the book. All that said, we have had months where everyone who posts in the discussion thread loves a book and yet it still only gets a few posts.

Other than that, I'm still not sure exactly how we can make this "fun time" happen on a long-term basis, but I think it's a terrific starting point to keep in mind for any new direction we take.

So every author is brilliant and every book flawless? Seems to me that would lead to a very bland and limited discussion. However, if it will indeed lead to more participation in I'm willing to give it a try, even if it means I do not contribute to the discussion some times. Not to come off to strong here though. Please see my response to Treadlightly above. I agree that making the discussion something that everyone wants to participate in should be a goal.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

...So every author is brilliant and every book flawless? Seems to me that would lead to a very bland and limited discussion. ...

Nope, notice I did say I didn't want a "peaches and cream lovefest". Every book shouldn't be brilliant and flawless, but I think some in the internet realm (myself included) have a tendency to really lay into a book they've read if they don't like it or even just find it mediocre. So, maybe if we as a group try to keep any negative comments in the discussion thread lighter and respectful it could encourage more people to join in the discussions in the long run. That means there still would be negative comments, just perhaps not so intense. But it's just an idea, and it would take the group as a whole wanting to go in that direction.

This is about making the club more enjoyable and sparking more discussion on the selections, so not posting your thoughts because you didn't like something would also be lessening discussion. While comments that are too negative may stifle discussion, so can trying too hard to be too nice. Maybe there is a happy median we could try for to encourage as much discussion as possible.

ETA - I'm agreeing with caleb mainly because the general book club discussion thread is often pretty short. It may help, it may not, but I thought he brought up some really good points. November's discussion had only five posts, October's seven; in 2014, half the discussion threads didn't make it past the first page including the last three, and none made it past a second page.

[crich70]

Sometimes we learn more from discussing what doesn't work than from what does I think. So I can see the merit of discussing what we think does work as a way of opening up a discussion of what doesn't. After all 100's of books are written every year and yet most books from the last two centuries seem to have vanished with nary a ripple leaving just the few that we call classics. So certainly the authors who wrote those books must have done something right that the others didn't.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

...Since the preference among this group does seem to be for fiction, why not just make this club a fiction club without any specific categories? That is every month a free for all fiction month, except perhaps for one second chance month a year?...

If we do away with categories, why keep fiction? Each month could just be a free-for-all, and if fiction is the main draw, that's what will win each month.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

I like Tom coming up with something by whatever means suits his needs that month. I'm with Issybird in that we need to make a more concerted effort to read and discuss. I am there now as long as the books are not too long. Sucking up a good half of my reading effort can be a strain some months.

There is some merit in that idea. It could also generate discussion and interest as members make their suggestions as to what category I should choose for the upcoming month each month.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by CRussel

I like the idea, but am concerned that we might need to provide a bit more lead time than "This month it's X and the survey is up." Maybe more on the order of "Next month will be X, and the survey will be up in 2 weeks."

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

For people like me that plan their reading excessively that would be nice.

Yes, IF we went this route, there would have to be some lead time, as in "Next month the category will be books about vampire mummies from outer space. The nominations will begin in two weeks."

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I think it would really help if we did the nominations/voting 1 month in advance to give us more time to read in case the book is long.

It's always been difficult to find the perfect balance. Some complain that we have too long now between the vote and the discussion and that by the time the discussion rolls around that the book has grown stale in their minds. My counter argument has always been that some members need the extra time and if the faster readers are worried about forgetting details in the book why not just wait until a few days before the discussion to read it?

[CRussel]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

If we do away with categories, why keep fiction? Each month could just be a free-for-all, and if fiction is the main draw, that's what will win each month.

I don't think doing away with categories is a good idea at all. As a couple of us have pointed out, it makes it too likely that a subset of readers will distort the choices. That being said, I'd be quite happy if all the categories were fiction of one sort or another. Not that I never read non-fiction, but I admit it's definitely lower down on my list.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

Well, if Tom/everyone really likes this "Fiction" idea, we could do a hybrid, something like say half the year "Fiction" and half the year with other categories, and maybe switch back and forth from Fiction to another category month to month. And if people are still worried about older books, we could make some of the Fiction months "Modern Fiction".

I like that idea. 6 structured categories (including January's Second Chance) interspersed with 6 Free-For-All months. It might be less risky than a total and complete break with the past.

[WT Sharpe]

I like non-profit fiction, but none of my choices ever seem to win, so I'm good with doing away with it as a category.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I like non-profit fiction, but none of my choices ever seem to win, so I'm good with doing away with it as a category.

I do not want to read Non-Profits for Fun and Profit.