11-14-2019, 09:29 PM | #1186 | |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 24,905
Karma: 47303822
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo, AuraH2O, GloHD,AuraONE, ClaraHD, Libra H2O; tolinoepos
|
Quote:
How sure are you that Kobo broke this (which they didn't) and that the other users of the RMSDK didn't spend time fixing a mess that Adobe supplied them? Please Jon, put up or shut up. You frequently make claims like this as fact. You never back them up. |
|
11-14-2019, 09:44 PM | #1187 |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 24,905
Karma: 47303822
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo, AuraH2O, GloHD,AuraONE, ClaraHD, Libra H2O; tolinoepos
|
And for the record:
Exactly how many of you have reported this "major bug" to Kobo? If it is such a problem, I'm sure all of you have reported it and explained why it is important. If enough people report the problem, it will change. And I have asked the question about monospace support. Basically, "not important", and not something they considered was needed. I also asked about the strange path used in the firmware which the patch @jackie_w fixes. That bit probably is a bug. Or at least it is inconsistent with other font paths. |
Advert | |
|
11-14-2019, 09:50 PM | #1188 |
Resident Curmudgeon
Posts: 75,047
Karma: 131375774
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3
|
Yes, there is a bug and this is it...
From librmsdk.so.1.0.0: res:///fonts/CourierStd.otf res:///fonts/CourierStd-Bold.otf res:///fonts/CourierStd-Oblique.otf res:///fonts/CourierStd-BoldOblique.otf Should be... res:///fonts/normal/CourierStd.otf res:///fonts/bold/CourierStd-Bold.otf res:///fonts/italic/CourierStd-Oblique.otf res:///fonts/bolditalic/CourierStd-BoldOblique.otf Because of this, CourierSTD cannot be put in fonts and used when monospace is used. |
11-15-2019, 05:30 AM | #1189 | |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 24,905
Karma: 47303822
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo, AuraH2O, GloHD,AuraONE, ClaraHD, Libra H2O; tolinoepos
|
Quote:
|
|
11-15-2019, 06:42 AM | #1190 | ||||||
Wizard
Posts: 1,760
Karma: 9918418
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Here on the perimeter, there are no stars
Device: Kobo H2O, iPad mini 3, Kindle Touch
|
Quote:
Quote:
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Quote:
First, some definitions. The EPUB 2.0.1 spec consists of three major sections: OPS (content), OPF (packaging), and OCF (container). We are concerned here with OPS, since that's the part dealing with CSS and XHTML and other matters of content. Since the IDPF website is currently offline, and more recent snapshots at the Wayback Machine don't actually allow browsing of that spec, I'm specifically referencing this snapshot. OPS 2.0.1 incorporates the CSS2 (most accurately, CSS 2.0) spec by reference; that spec is here. Finally, when I refer to "CSS/x.y.z," that's shorthand for "the CSS 2.0 specification, section x.y.z." Citing CSS/15.2.6: Quote:
OPS/3.3 modifies this by dropping "fantasy" and "cursive" from the list of five. Note the highlighted phrases; monospace is inarguably well "within the limits allowed by the underlying technology" of an e-reader. Note also the word "should" in the final sentence; it has a specifically defined meaning in this context. See also OPS/1.4.2.ii: "[The Reading System must] recognize all markup described as permitted in this specification and processes it consistently with the corresponding explanations in this specification and in those of XHTML 1.1, CSS 2, and DTBook (in case of any conflict, this specification takes precedence)". Finally, consider OPS/3.4, which deals with embedded fonts: Quote:
Now, remember how I said there was a significant difference between "should" and "may"? Both CSS/3.1 and OPS/1.4 specifically state that certain keywords - specifically including "must" and "should" and "may" - are to be interpreted as defined in RFC 2119. You appear to believe that "should" means "this is a good idea, one we recommend following, but it's ultimately optional and this is just a guideline." That is not at all true. RFC 2119 states: Quote:
Review time. Reading Systems MUST comply with CSS2, except as modified by OPS/3.3, which drops the "fantasy" and "cursive" families but retains "monospace". Reading Systems MAY completely decline to support embedded fonts. Per CSS2, Reading Systems SHOULD "express the characteristics of each [generic] family as well as possible within the limits allowed by the underlying technology." That means that "monospace" should be rendered as monospace. Bottom line? According to the relevant specs, a conscientious author is on firmer ground expecting that a Reading System will support "monospace" than he is if he assumes that it will support embedded fonts. Therefore, your advice to "embed a monospace font if you want to use monospace" is completely wrongheaded. You are advising ebook designers to rely on an optional feature to patch a hole in a recommended feature. This. Is. A. Bug. It's that simple. Last edited by Rev. Bob; 11-15-2019 at 06:45 AM. |
||||||
Advert | |
|
11-15-2019, 06:58 AM | #1191 | |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 6,212
Karma: 16534894
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: UK
Device: Kobo: KA1, ClaraHD, Forma, Libra2, Clara2E. PocketBook: TouchHD3
|
Quote:
res:///fonts/normal/CourierStd res:///fonts/bold/CourierStd res:///fonts/italic/CourierStd res:///fonts/bolditalic/CourierStd In addition (based on all previous experiments) the Kobo wouldn't like file-endings of -Oblique.otf and -BoldOblique.otf. Those would need to be changed to -Italic.otf and -BoldItalic.otf respectively. This is only a guess on my part but, the fact that these paths are so wrong suggests that it is a piece of Adobe code which has never been changed at all from the original, rather than one where a developer has changed it erroneously. Maybe Adobe wanted to charge a lot of money for Kobo to have the rights to distribute CourierStd so it was always a non-starter. It's offered for sale here at $99. That's $99 more than I'd want to pay for it . |
|
11-15-2019, 07:09 AM | #1192 | |
Resident Curmudgeon
Posts: 75,047
Karma: 131375774
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3
|
Quote:
If you are correct about the code being left over from RMSDK, then it would go to proving that monospace is part of RMSDK and that Kobo just didn't do anything with it. |
|
11-15-2019, 07:21 AM | #1193 |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 6,212
Karma: 16534894
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: UK
Device: Kobo: KA1, ClaraHD, Forma, Libra2, Clara2E. PocketBook: TouchHD3
|
Well, not really. It doesn't prove that Adobe were willing to include the CourierStd font files for mass distribution at no extra cost. We just don't know.
|
11-15-2019, 07:59 AM | #1194 | |||
Wizard
Posts: 1,760
Karma: 9918418
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Here on the perimeter, there are no stars
Device: Kobo H2O, iPad mini 3, Kindle Touch
|
Quote:
I originally cited the CSS3 Fonts specification, section 3.1.1: Quote:
However, EPUB 3.0 (there’s no such thing as an “ePub” spec) incorporates the older CSS 2.1, which states in section 15.3.1: Quote:
Finally, EPUB 2.0.1 incorporates the even older CSS 2.0. The relevant language there is in section 15.2.6, and it is word-for-word identical to the CSS 2.1 paragraph above. The current language may appear stronger to the layman, but on the matter under discussion, there is little technical difference between them to a programmer. Basically, the current spec takes into account that Unicode is frakkin’ HUGE and permits a system to have one big font to define the rare glyphs as an ultimate fallback. In other words, if you use a Russian word (on an English system), a symbol, or an emoji but you don’t provide a font, you’re likely to get whatever the system can come up with… regardless of whether you specified serif, sans, or mono, and you don’t get to complain. Be glad the system had it at all. Common glyphs, however, are a different matter. An English-language designer has every reason to expect that basic Latin characters can be styled as simple monospace and will be rendered as monospace. After all, as noted above, EPUB 2.0.1 dictates that embedded font support is only optional, while monospace support is recommended. |
|||
11-15-2019, 09:31 AM | #1195 |
Grand Sorcerer
Posts: 24,905
Karma: 47303822
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Device: Kobo:Touch,Glo, AuraH2O, GloHD,AuraONE, ClaraHD, Libra H2O; tolinoepos
|
@Rev. Bob: I have read what I need to of you reply and have the following comments:
Firstly, all specs are up to the interpretation of the developers involved. And unless they say that something must be done in a particular way, then what is done will be up to the interpretation of the developer. I do not not read any of these as saying must. "Should" does not mean "must". And no, I am not interpreting "should" as "may". I am interpreting "should" as "should". And that means "It would be a damn good idea if you did this, but, you don't absolutely have to do it". My comment about epub 2 was because you supplied links to CSS for epub3 and epub2. They were different links. I read both. They were not identical. The text is very different and in no way was it word-for-word the same. If you pointed to the wrong thing, then you should have said that rather than accusing me of not being able to read. Yes, my comment about how rarely I have seen monospace is anecdotal, as is yours. An no, neither proves that anything other than we have different book. But, do you really believe that books that need monospace in them are actually a significant percentage of all books out there? Kobo have got the stats based on all the books they see. They don't see this is important to them. For the record, I was surprised when I first realised that there was no monospace font supplied. But, I've never considered it a bug. I see it as a missing feature, and not a particularly important one. I can list a lot of things I'd like to see on the device before this. And, as I always say at this point, if you have a problem, report it to Kobo. If you don't, then there is no reason for them to fix or change something as it is obviously not important to you. |
11-15-2019, 12:56 PM | #1196 | ||
Bibliophagist
Posts: 37,859
Karma: 150333332
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Device: Kobo Sage, Libra Colour, Lenovo M8 FHD, Paperwhite 4, Tolino epos
|
If you are going to quote specifications, perhaps you should have included this quote (bolding mine):
Quote:
Quote:
And just for the heck of it, I ran a search on my epub file collection for the use of a monospaced font, <code> tags, etc.. Then I went through and removed those that embedded a monospace font. The final result is that I have 4 epubs with an embedded monospaced font and 5 epubs that use monospace without including an embedded font for a total of 9 out of 9812 epubs. Andy Weir's The Martian is the only one that bothered me enough to add a monospaced font to the fonts directory on my Kobo ereaders. Last edited by DNSB; 11-15-2019 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Added the search for monospace usage |
||
11-15-2019, 01:21 PM | #1197 | |
Wizard
Posts: 2,845
Karma: 22003124
Join Date: Aug 2014
Device: Kobo Forma, Kobo Sage, Kobo Libra 2
|
Quote:
I can put a color image into an ebook, in fact many ebooks exist in multitudes of formats which already have color images. Far more so than ebooks which require or even use monospace. There are color eink screens available in various levels of quality. There are devices which properly display the image in full color. But it's not a bug. Also you can rant on all you like, but your own words prove you wrong, last I checked recommended did not mean required, it did not imply you had to do anything. All it means is the feature is suggested to be included. And thus far you've shown no evidence that it must be done, while others have shown evidence that it's at most suggested. You are thus calling the lack of an optional feature a bug when its omission was a choice. While also trying to shoehorn in that content creators shouldn't have to make a choice to embed a font to ensure their content is displayed how they want it to be. |
|
11-15-2019, 04:41 PM | #1198 | ||||||||
Wizard
Posts: 1,760
Karma: 9918418
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Here on the perimeter, there are no stars
Device: Kobo H2O, iPad mini 3, Kindle Touch
|
Quote:
I was right. You keep interpreting “should” much more loosely than the RFC 2119 definition allows. In doing so, despite your protests to the contrary, your interpretation is closer to that document’s “may” than its “should.” Quote:
That’s much more stringent than “it’s a damn good idea to implement X.” It is a dire warning to the developer to think really damned hard and consider all of the ramifications before omitting the feature, because getting rid of it is a really serious matter. Figure it this way. In the legal system, one MUST not commit rape. There’s no circumstance where it’s permissible. By contrast, one SHOULD not kill. There are a couple of situations where that’s allowed, but you’d better think hard before pulling that trigger, because the consequences could be dire. (For “may,” the best I can come up with right now is speeding. If you’re going five miles over the limit, maybe ten, most cops won’t care. In that sense, strict adherence to the posted limit is pretty much “optional.”) Quote:
Second cite: Read the sentence immediately following the parenthetical element you bolded. Quote:
And remember, “should” has a very explicit meaning in this context. Quote:
The more correct example would be the Kobo app forcing images to grayscale despite running on a device with a color screen. There’s no technical justification for the behavior, and it improperly violates the author’s intent. Quote:
You’re applying a vernacular definition to what, in this context, is a technical term. You might as well say that C++ programmers can end lines of code with emdashes instead of semicolons, on the grounds that the rules of English grammar permit emdashes to be used that way. Different context, different rules. Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||||
11-15-2019, 05:22 PM | #1199 | ||
Wizard
Posts: 2,845
Karma: 22003124
Join Date: Aug 2014
Device: Kobo Forma, Kobo Sage, Kobo Libra 2
|
Yes, what you're espousing is utter nonsense.
[/QUote] The more correct example would be the Kobo app forcing images to grayscale despite running on a device with a color screen. There’s no technical justification for the behavior, and it improperly violates the author’s intent. [/quote] And it would still be a deficiency especially if done intentionally. Not a bug. You really might want to spend some time learning what constitutes a bug versus a deficiency. Quote:
Quote:
The rules of English can be bent quite far, but even these guidelines stay well within them. It is you who are trying to impose an entirely different meaning upon the terms, even such as they are defined here, to try and defend your incorrect stance. |
||
11-15-2019, 05:31 PM | #1200 | |
Wizard
Posts: 1,760
Karma: 9918418
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Here on the perimeter, there are no stars
Device: Kobo H2O, iPad mini 3, Kindle Touch
|
Quote:
Well, you’ve just proven that I can ignore you and lose nothing of value. You ought to put those goalposts down; dragging them around like that can’t be good for your back. |
|
Tags |
pocket app |
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Probably a Kobo bug. | eXistenZ | Kobo Reader | 19 | 06-13-2014 09:16 PM |
[Old Thread] Bug in downloading metadata | Dasun | Library Management | 3 | 03-21-2011 07:31 PM |
Possible bug or misfeature when a thread is closed | tompe | Feedback | 7 | 10-05-2010 09:38 AM |