Torrents and torrents..

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I'm fairly sure that's the manner that all of these suggestions have been given in.

To be fair, I, personally, am trying to bring about a world in which quality literature is no longer written for lack of any incentive and people do not volunteer to improve gratis public domain eBooks for lack of gratitude from the dirty beggars that read them (instead of purchasing them from commercial publishers like respectable citizens).

But maybe that's just me.

- Ahi

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by ahi

Your sort of frank and sensible talk has no place in a thread like this.

Of course what you are describing would make perfect sense--and, as MR staff already stated, they will in no way facilitate it happening.

One of us, however, is theoretically free to do so. Albeit I'd be careful because I'm all but certain there are at least a few uploaders who mistakenly assume that they have some sort of monopoly right on determining what happens with the public domain eBooks they prepared.

- Ahi

From a sideline viewers perspective from someone who doesn't care one way or the other if a bulk torrent is provided by MR........

It is interesting that you keep claiming to not be demanding anything yet the tone of your remarks is consistantly rude and laced with cynicism towards the lack of an offered torrent when discussing the issue.

You claim to not be demanding anything because you have never specifically stated that you are in fact demanding it. Yet on the other hand you imply the uploaders are not being truthful when they state anyone else is free to provide a torrent download if they so choose. Instead suggesting that they believe they have some sort of right over what you may do with these PD works.

If you want people to take you at your word in claiming that you are not demanding anything then perhaps you should take the uploaders at their word when they state you are free to do what you please with these PD works once downloaded. Further, you may try toning down the rudeness of your remarks when referring to the lack of a bulk torrent download as this rudeness does come across(as I'm sure it is intended) as "demanding" that a torrent be offered.

All in my humble opinion of course.

Cheers,
PKFFW

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

Yet on the other hand you imply the uploaders are not being truthful when they state anyone else is free to provide a torrent download if they so choose.

I don't want to speak for ahi, but "uploaders" is not a single entity. Yes, some have said anyone is free to provide a torrent (which they are), but I have gotten the impression from some of the posts on here that others would be opposed to that.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if somebody posted a torrent link on here or in the wiki to a MR bulk download. I have a suspicion, but obviously don't know for sure. I think ahi's comments along those lines are the equivalent of her suspicion of what would happen.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stustaff

The current situation means that the hard work of uploaders will be unseen by me because Downloading from here is harder than getting a (no doubt poorer quality) torrent file elsewhere.

I can only see negatives in this for MR and no positives of the current situation set up.

Positives of the current situation:
People who want free MR books have to come here. Have to see comment threads, are exposed to the "similar threads" section underneath each post. Have an opportunity to participate in the discussions.

Negatives of bulk downloads:
More people who collect ebooks, esp. MR ebooks, without saying hi.

One of the goals of MR is to encourage discussion about ebooks. Distributing free, well-formatted ebooks came about because of that goal, and many people at MR, including those formatters, don't want want that ignored.

You *can* come to MR and download books and never join the conversations. And people are welcome to do that. But MR wasn't designed as a free ebook repository; "allow strangers to grab lots of books and go away without talking to anyone" is not one of the goals here.

It's not forbidden at all. Strangers (and anyone else) are very welcome to do that. You don't need a login ID to download the books, so anonymous strangers can even get books. But since that's not the *desired* state--since that's not what's *wanted*--which is ebook-related discussions--MR is not providing resources that would encourage an unwanted goal. Not even for the convenience of the regulars, who would happily stay & discuss even if "all the westerns" could be downloaded in one neat zip file.

For the regulars, it's a minor inconvenience. For ebook-collectors (hoarders?) it's more than that... but the site wasn't created to facilitate easy collecting of ebooks that aren't going to be read & discussed.

It would be worth making bulk downloadable sets if and only if there were a way to do so that doesn't detract from MR's goal of more ebook communication.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Positives of the current situation:
People who want free MR books have to come here. Have to see comment threads, are exposed to the "similar threads" section underneath each post. Have an opportunity to participate in the discussions.

Negatives of bulk downloads:
More people who collect ebooks, esp. MR ebooks, without saying hi.

One of the goals of MR is to encourage discussion about ebooks. Distributing free, well-formatted ebooks came about because of that goal, and many people at MR, including those formatters, don't want want that ignored.

True, but what about people who do participate in the discussions, but would like a more convenient way of accessing the collection? I fail to see how that would violate any of the goals?

I certainly respect their right to place any terms they wish on the downloading of the material they voluntarily make available. I'm just commenting that the reasoning behind dictating those terms doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It certainly sounds like I'm not alone in that opinion. They are certainly free to ignore that feedback from their users, if they wish.

[igorsk]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

It would be interesting to see what would happen if somebody posted a torrent link on here or in the wiki to a MR bulk download. I have a suspicion, but obviously don't know for sure. I think ahi's comments along those lines are the equivalent of her suspicion of what would happen.

I think it has happened before. Can't find the thread but it was pretty quickly shouted down and torrent link deleted.
See also this thread.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by PKFFW

It is interesting that you keep claiming to not be demanding anything yet the tone of your remarks is consistantly rude and laced with cynicism towards the lack of an offered torrent when discussing the issue.

....

If you want people to take you at your word in claiming that you are not demanding anything then perhaps you should take the uploaders at their word when they state you are free to do what you please with these PD works once downloaded. Further, you may try toning down the rudeness of your remarks when referring to the lack of a bulk torrent download as this rudeness does come across(as I'm sure it is intended) as "demanding" that a torrent be offered.

Since I do not have the good manners of the idea's opponents, I can neither match them in politeness, gratitude, or acute reasoning.

As for the rest, others already seem to have addressed your comments to my thorough satisfaction.

- Ahi

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Positives of the current situation:
People who want free MR books have to come here. Have to see comment threads, are exposed to the "similar threads" section underneath each post. Have an opportunity to participate in the discussions.

Negatives of bulk downloads:
More people who collect ebooks, esp. MR ebooks, without saying hi.

One of the goals of MR is to encourage discussion about ebooks. Distributing free, well-formatted ebooks came about because of that goal, and many people at MR, including those formatters, don't want want that ignored.

You *can* come to MR and download books and never join the conversations. And people are welcome to do that. But MR wasn't designed as a free ebook repository; "allow strangers to grab lots of books and go away without talking to anyone" is not one of the goals here.

It's not forbidden at all. Strangers (and anyone else) are very welcome to do that. You don't need a login ID to download the books, so anonymous strangers can even get books. But since that's not the *desired* state--since that's not what's *wanted*--which is ebook-related discussions--MR is not providing resources that would encourage an unwanted goal. Not even for the convenience of the regulars, who would happily stay & discuss even if "all the westerns" could be downloaded in one neat zip file.

For the regulars, it's a minor inconvenience. For ebook-collectors (hoarders?) it's more than that... but the site wasn't created to facilitate easy collecting of ebooks that aren't going to be read & discussed.

It would be worth making bulk downloadable sets if and only if there were a way to do so that doesn't detract from MR's goal of more ebook communication.

You listed one positive... and all of those things would still be possible if a torrent were offered within an author thread.
Also if as i suspect more people would use the service then more people would get to have an oportunity to discuss things.

your negatives are little more than what seem incorrect assumptions.
you say "One of the goals of MR is to encourage discussion about ebooks. Distributing free, well-formatted ebooks came about because of that goal, and many people at MR, including those formatters, don't want want that ignored."
And you imply if torrents were available this would somehow not happen! why would that be the case in fact more readers(my opinion that better functionality and ease = more users/readers) of the well formatted books would increase the people taking part in discussion of the ebooks wouldnt it?

you say that "MR is not providing resources that would encourage an unwanted goal." But I strongly disagree that torrents for specific groupings would cause that to happen why would people suddenly stop posting there comments? again I am certain more users of the content means more commenters on the content.

"For the regulars, it's a minor inconvenience." I can only speak for myself but its an uneccesary inconveniance that means I - A read less MR books and -B comment on less MR books.

Direct evidence that the current system actually discourages comments and discussion seems to be being ignored in favour of an attitude it has to be said very very similiar to that of other content holders.

I wish this fear of somethin new or of giving your content consumer the ability to use your content in the way they want didnt exist at MR.

MR should be embracing the freedoms that the current technology gives us not hiding in the past.

and most of teh excuses do seem like unfounded excuses with no evidence to back up the claims.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

It's not forbidden at all. Strangers (and anyone else) are very welcome to do that. You don't need a login ID to download the books, so anonymous strangers can even get books. But since that's not the *desired* state--since that's not what's *wanted*--which is ebook-related discussions--MR is not providing resources that would encourage an unwanted goal. Not even for the convenience of the regulars, who would happily stay & discuss even if "all the westerns" could be downloaded in one neat zip file.

So the logic is that it's OK to inconvenience regulars in the hope that a stranger won't be able to "get something for free" and then leave. Doesn't that seem a little backwards? Wouldn't focusing on improving the experience encourage more people to stay, rather than hoping that people who are only interested in downloading books would somehow be encouraged to stay if the process to download was sufficiently tedious?

As was stated in the beginning of this thread, that's very similar to the same flawed logic that the content industry is currently using to "fight" piracy. Spend time trying to stop the leeches (who would never really be your customer anyway) instead of focusing on improving the product for your actual customers.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

True, but what about people who do participate in the discussions, but would like a more convenient way of accessing the collection? I fail to see how that would violate any of the goals?

It wouldn't. (At least, not as far as I can figure it out.) The question is whether putting up torrents would discourage new participation more than the value of convenience to regular participants.

Those are awfully disparate things to try to compare & measure against each other.

FWIW, I don't like it either. I'd love to see (1) much better search ability for ebooks and (2) bundled sets--if not torrents of "all MR ebooks," sets like "westerns" or "gothic horror" or "creative commons sci-fi".

I think some of the reasons for not doing these are technical. I don't think anyone thinks the current search engine is the best possible one (although it might be "best possible in this forum structure," and not worth changing because of that).

It'd be interesting to try putting together themed sets, even if just as link collections in the Recommendations forum, and see if that drives up participation or feedback.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by igorsk

I think it has happened before. Can't find the thread but it was pretty quickly shouted down and torrent link deleted.
See also this thread.

Guessing some people don't like WGET either then.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by igorsk

I think it has happened before. Can't find the thread but it was pretty quickly shouted down and torrent link deleted.
See also this thread.

Kind of throws the whole "You have no right to demand that we do that extra work, but are free to do it yourself" argument out the window. With some, at least, the work of providing the torrent doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.

Some of the attitudes expressed in that thread are very sad.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The question is whether putting up torrents would discourage new participation more than the value of convenience to regular participants.

I think the answer to a similar question regarding commercial books would receive two completely different answers depending on whether you asked publishers or consumers.

(1)Eliminate easy access, and people who otherwise wouldn't have participated in your service will (for some reason) decide to do so. Inconveniencing your regulars with a deliberately crippled product is justified in order to try to force the leeches to participate.

(2)Exposure and an improved product will increase the number of people participating in your service. The people who are only interested in leeching aren't worth worrying about, because they're unlikely to participate in your service either way. Focus on making the service better for those who participate, and more people will become participants.

It sounds like, for some people on here, their answer is basically the same as the publishers. You'd think they'd be more enlightened than that.

[stustaff]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I think the answer to a similar question regarding commercial books would receive two completely different answers depending on whether you asked publishers or consumers.

(1)Eliminate easy access, and people who otherwise wouldn't have participated in your service will (for some reason) decide to do so. Inconveniencing your regulars with a deliberately crippled product is justified in order to try to force the leeches to participate.

(2)Exposure and an improved product will increase the number of people participating in your service. The people who are only interested in leeching aren't worth worrying about, because they're unlikely to participate in your service either way. Focus on making the service better for those who participate, and more people will become participants.

It sounds like, for some people on here, their answer is basically the same as the publishers. You'd think they'd be more enlightened than that.

Excellently put and sums up what I was trying to say but in a clearer manner.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Kind of throws the whole "You have no right to demand that we do that extra work, but are free to do it yourself" argument out the window. With some, at least, the work of providing the torrent doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.

Some of the attitudes expressed in that thread are very sad.

Now, now... don't be rude. Don't you know there is no right or wrong, no truth, only subjective and equally valid opinions.*

- Ahi

* May not be true for opinions that do not speak English.