09-21-2018, 11:16 AM | #106 | ||||
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I'm not saying there needed to be an escape or rebellion; I'm just saying that in light of the quest for a deferral, which is an important story element, why not include a sentence or two about why escape isn't considered a possibility--fear of the unknown, fear of punishment, some kind of surveillance, etc. That would have stopped me from being distracted about it from the point when the veterans first brought up deferrals. Quote:
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Same thing with the donations, and the general maximum of four times. I was distracted wondering what spare organs could be gleaned from living donors. Kidney and bone marrow, what else? It wasn't until very late that there was mention of organs being used for miracle cures, but even with that invention, still, there's the problem of what can be safely taken. Now, if the author had decided to posit that the cloning process created beings with extra sets of various organs that could be harvested, I would not have questioned it as scientifically crazy or demanded explanations; I would have been perfectly willing to go along with it as something the author wanted for purposes of the story. Quote:
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09-21-2018, 11:26 AM | #107 | |
cacoethes scribendi
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While I can see why you identify the romantic triangle, the romance aspect seemed so understated - to me - as to be mostly just another emphasis on their passive nature. It certainly didn't occupy the same sort of significant, up front, role that such a triangle would play in a more typical romance. I don't know that Ishiguro had a particular point, or wanted to make a statement. It felt to me more like a question: "I saw this, what do you think?" He's not trying to compel, he's querying. (At least, I like to think of it that way, because that's the impact the book had on me.) |
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09-21-2018, 12:01 PM | #108 | |
cacoethes scribendi
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The author chose to make the clones sterile, but the book never says how sterility (or cloning) is achieved, and it never states cloning=sterility as a fact. (Saying that the clones in this story are sterile is not the same as claiming that one causes the other.) The book gives very little in the way of science fact, and is very unadventurous in the science it uses, so it's almost impossible for it to be wrong. (It may be improbable or unbelievable to you, but that's different.) For the rest ... I understand. I disagree in this case, but I can see what you are dissatisfied with and empathise - particularly since I have difficulty describing exactly why this book worked for me. As a science fiction fan I should have been pickier about that side than you, and as a person that prefers books with strong plots and forward drive I should have had more trouble with this book than I did. Instead, I picked it up and within a few pages I was happily ensconced in that world, accepting things as Kathy presented them, and driven forward by my desire to hear her out. And I finished the book both satisfied and contemplative - which is a sign of a very good (for me) book. |
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09-21-2018, 12:07 PM | #109 | |
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This discussion has been great. It has helped me understand and appreciate the book more. I think I would have a completely different experience to read this book a second time. The first read-through there are so many concealed details that get revealed slowly that you are in a questioning mindset which makes its more difficult to passively accept the science and alternate world. The second time I would focus more on the people and emotions and interactions between characters. |
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09-21-2018, 01:03 PM | #110 | |
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I subscribe to the Chekhov's gun principle--if you show a gun on the table, that gun has to be used at some point, or why is it there? My issue with this book is that there's so much that Ishiguro throws on the table and just lets it sit there. Last edited by Catlady; 09-21-2018 at 02:15 PM. |
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09-21-2018, 06:10 PM | #111 |
o saeclum infacetum
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In the end, I can't tell if Ishiguro has a fully realized world in his mind and failed to communicate it, or if it's somewhat nebulous to him as it is to some of us.
It makes me appreciate how tricky a dance it is; I hate over-realized worlds where the author tells everything in so many words rather than, comfortable in the knowledge of the world himself, he trusts the reader to get it right, or right enough, based on what the author reveals. Of the two, I'd rather have less than too much. Unfortunately, the Miss Emily info-dump smacks of Ishiguro having second thoughts at the very end. The gallery never made sense, no matter what interpretation you put on it. |
09-21-2018, 06:47 PM | #112 | |
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Clearly from the bits I quoted earlier, it is her fellow clones, so she doesn't need to explain the general ways in which the system works. In any case, she has only a limited understanding of that herself. Her style is artless and in many ways she seems a lot younger than 30 or so. (She has been a carer for 12 years, which would make her about that age.) Again, I accept that that is a reflection of her limited education and interaction with anyone other than her fellow clones. I didn't mind the "information dump" from Miss Emily at the end. This was something of which Kathy and Tommy had no knowledge, and so they and we could only understand what was going on by getting that information from someone who knew how the system worked. And finally in writing this, I reflected on their names. Kathy is used for adults as well as children, but adult males aren't usually still called a more childish name like Tommy. It underlined again the clones' more childlike qualities. |
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09-21-2018, 07:51 PM | #113 | |
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Further, if clones were truly considered sub-human and it was easily possible to ensure their sterility, I doubt the decision to do so would even attract much thought. Finally, this author did not want to write a book about clones interacting with "normal" society. According to the video interview, he wanted to write a book about love and friendship amongst people facing mortality. Anything else he seems to have considered extraneous. Last edited by darryl; 09-21-2018 at 07:53 PM. |
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09-21-2018, 08:51 PM | #114 | |
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And if the interaction with normal society is extraneous, why was sex with non-clones specifically mentioned? I can't be the only reader who thought that that would lead to some subplot. |
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09-21-2018, 11:44 PM | #115 | ||||
cacoethes scribendi
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Sex even gets tied to the title of the book. Madame watching Kathy dancing to the song, Never Let Me Go, as if with a baby, and a couple of years later Kathy and Tommy trying to find an explanation as to why Madame was upset. Amid that conversation is this: Quote:
Your questions had me collect the next bit about the fact that the clones are not supposed to smoke: Quote:
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But that's not the case with Never Let Me Go. There are no distractions. It is a book sparse of detail, so that everything that is mentioned feels important. In most cases the importance/purpose is contextual, it's that sort of book, part of setting up the feelings and questions in the reader's mind. If you're not in a receptive frame of mind you're going to miss the connections. The following may be a bit presumptuous, I hope you'll excuse it. Some of your comments might be derived from a genre-writers' advice column about finding sources of possible conflict in the story and using that to drive the action or character interactions. (The possibility of sex between clones and normals, or that supposedly sterile clones might find a way to breed, or that some clones might become rebellious or try to escape, and so on.) It's good advice, as far as it goes, for standard genre fiction. Just one of the many guidelines that exist to help authors of such fiction to stay on the straight and narrow path (to keep to the conventions that modern readers expect). But I never really expected Ishiguro would stay on the path. There is very little conflict in Never Let Me Go, and what there is never seems to get beyond rather childish stuff (as highlighted by bookpossum). It is my impression that this is entirely intentional (rather than lazy or accidental). So all your suggestions wondering why Ishiguro didn't introduce this or that conflict seem - to me - to be misdirected. The lack of conflict is one of the central elements of this book. |
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09-22-2018, 12:21 AM | #116 | |||
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In the spirit of lack of conflict, I just had to reply to some posts where we are in agreement about this book
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09-22-2018, 01:25 AM | #117 |
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I on the other hand have no intention right now of re-reading this book or anything else by this author, though I am a believer in never say never. We thankfully have differing tastes and perspectives and I too have enjoyed the discussion, particularly how others interpret the book. The "conflict", such as it is, seems to be healthy disagreement amongst reasonable people. After all, it would be boring if we all agreed.
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09-22-2018, 01:48 AM | #118 | |
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Sex with normal people could indeed have lead to a very different story if the author had wanted to go that way. Instead it serves the very minor object of furthering the isolation of the clones from that normal society. I agree that, like much in the book, it raised expectations that were not realised. You have focused on some of these elements, I on others. In my case I have been left disappointed and frustrated and feel that the book is largely incomplete. Your experience seems to be similar. Others have been able to ignore all of these aspects and enjoy the book for what it is. |
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09-22-2018, 08:51 AM | #119 | |
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I still don't get why there is this suggestion that the sterility angle is an anomaly. Making the clones sterile isn't even science fiction, there are many ways it can be done (several involving no genetics at all). And there are many reasons why it might be done: in our world companies make GM crops infertile for commercial reasons. (One can easily envisage these clones as a sort of GM crop.) There are also examples in our world of human body products used for treating disease, including cancer. eg: adult stem cells. (In a society happy to grow clones, the use of embryonic stem cells would seem like a more obvious choice than adult stem cells, but maybe they know something we don't, or maybe the clones are genetically modified to make a difference.) I'm not claiming this is the answer in the story (I still consider it irrelevant), but the scientific stretch to what we see in Never Let Me Go seems very small indeed, certainly much less than a lot of other science fiction. |
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09-22-2018, 10:20 AM | #120 | |||||
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And the better writers, whether genre or literary, don't need to rely on an information dump. Quote:
"Feelings and questions"? Are they supposed to be a substitute for plot? What questions am I supposed to have? Am I supposed to wonder about the morality of cloning humans? Did that in college ethics courses decades ago. Am I supposed to be amazed at the idea of learned helplessness? Been there, done that. Just what are the great insights I'm supposed to glean from this book and ponder? Quote:
Without conflict, there's no story. The romantic triangle was at least mildly interesting because the characters were in conflict and you have the push-pull of competing loyalties and motives. The larger context of clones as a donor class was just a given; we didn't even know about "miracle cures" or how they fit into society as a whole until the information dump. To a certain extent, the clone aspect was background noise. |
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