Dragons? Yea or Nay?

[Thedragongod]

Originally Posted by Nancy Fulda

Writers are always warning each other to stay away from cliche elements like elves and dragons. But the truth is, I LOVE dragons. Almost any dragon, in any form, as long as it's neither imbecilic nor smart-mouthed. All other things being equal, I'm more likely to buy a book with dragons in it than one without.

What about you guys?

[self-promotion removed - moderation]

To answer your question: I say YES, but only if you are a risk taker. I took a risk when I decided to write about space dragons, but I've been with them in my imagination for years.

[xg4bx]

i like dragons lol. they've got to be aloof and look at humanity as a pest though or even just be wild predators ala the movie Reign of Fire. i dont want warm and fuzzy dragons.

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I'm so not a fan of dragons. Especially the talking variety. It makes me feel like I'm in a children's book or something. Talking dragons? Seriously? *sigh*

One of the things that's cool about fantasy is that you can make stuff up. There's no catalog of existent mythological creatures that you're forced to pick from. So why dragons all the time? It's formulaic. And it's a formula that never worked for me even the first time I read it.

If there are going to be dragons, I don't want them doing any more than being a mute cameo. Seriously, come up with something new. But I am so sick of dragons that even a very subtle mention of dragons makes my brain tick over, and I swear I can't remember the next 3 pages after "dragons" first appears because my head has decided based on that word that whatever comes next is not important.

Elves... I like elves. But I'm starting to get sort of tired of the LotR-style ones, which are everywhere, because the characters are always the same. The reason I'm getting tired of them is the same reason Superman is boring.

Superman is too perfect. There's nothing wrong with him. Yeah, there's kryptonite, but it's so predictable and I don't mean allergies, I mean his personality. There's nothing gripping about his personality. He's a Boy Scout in leggings. That's boring.

A lot of elves in modern fantasy are too perfect as well. They got the looks, the brains, the magic, the pretty handwriting, and everyone hates them because they're just soooo perfect. It's sort of like the premise of any high school drama. And it's boring.

I like seeing gritty elves. In fact, I'm going to take this opportunity to ask for recommendation of books with messed up, evil/antihero, badass elves.

Give me some personality. Give me something I can relate to. I'm tired of "teenage dream" elves.

EDIT: Actually, you know what? My problem with both of these things are related. In both cases, my problem is that the author is writing "stick characters" - flat, unengaging characters - because it's easier to do and they care more about the action than the characters.

In the case of dragons, they're avoiding having to develop characters at all by using an absurdity as a distraction, and in the case of elves they're just embuing them with a character type that's been trotted out so many times it should really just be shot. Why?

Because it's an easy way to avoid spending time on the characters when you'd rather talk about the world or the action. And a LOT of fantasy writers do this. I HATE this. I want characters AND world/action. If the characters suck why should I care?

[speakingtohe]

There is no refreshing, new twist that an author can come up with for dragons... it's been done.

While I agree that most plots (with or without dragons) have been done, and often done to death, I come across concepts/characters/plots that are new or refreshing to me.

Tea with The Black Dragon by R. A McAvoy for instance is not your usual run of the mill dragon story.

I am pretty dragon neutral but if a book is good a dragon or two is often a bonus.

Helen

[Thedragongod]

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

I'm so not a fan of dragons. Especially the talking variety. It makes me feel like I'm in a children's book or something. Talking dragons? Seriously? *sigh*

One of the things that's cool about fantasy is that you can make stuff up. There's no catalog of existent mythological creatures that you're forced to pick from. So why dragons all the time? It's formulaic. And it's a formula that never worked for me even the first time I read it.

If there are going to be dragons, I don't want them doing any more than being a mute cameo. Seriously, come up with something new. But I am so sick of dragons that even a very subtle mention of dragons makes my brain tick over, and I swear I can't remember the next 3 pages after "dragons" first appears because my head has decided based on that word that whatever comes next is not important.

Elves... I like elves. But I'm starting to get sort of tired of the LotR-style ones, which are everywhere, because the characters are always the same. The reason I'm getting tired of them is the same reason Superman is boring.

Superman is too perfect. There's nothing wrong with him. Yeah, there's kryptonite, but it's so predictable and I don't mean allergies, I mean his personality. There's nothing gripping about his personality. He's a Boy Scout in leggings. That's boring.

A lot of elves in modern fantasy are too perfect as well. They got the looks, the brains, the magic, the pretty handwriting, and everyone hates them because they're just soooo perfect. It's sort of like the premise of any high school drama. And it's boring.

I like seeing gritty elves. In fact, I'm going to take this opportunity to ask for recommendation of books with messed up, evil/antihero, badass elves.

Give me some personality. Give me something I can relate to. I'm tired of "teenage dream" elves.

EDIT: Actually, you know what? My problem with both of these things are related. In both cases, my problem is that the author is writing "stick characters" - flat, unengaging characters - because it's easier to do and they care more about the action than the characters.

In the case of dragons, they're avoiding having to develop characters at all by using an absurdity as a distraction, and in the case of elves they're just embuing them with a character type that's been trotted out so many times it should really just be shot. Why?

Because it's an easy way to avoid spending time on the characters when you'd rather talk about the world or the action. And a LOT of fantasy writers do this. I HATE this. I want characters AND world/action. If the characters suck why should I care?

[promotional reference deleted - MODERATOR].

I find poetry stories to have better-developed characters than Novels. Go into a bookstore and browse the fantasy section. You'll see nothing but vampires, dragons, and the word "blood" everywhere. I've written about space dragons and I'm disappointed with fantasy books these days.

[ProfCrash]

Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders and the Rain Wild Chronicles are two good trilogies that center around dragons.

[5thWiggle]

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

I like seeing gritty elves. In fact, I'm going to take this opportunity to ask for recommendation of books with messed up, evil/antihero, badass elves.

Terry Pratchett's Lords and Ladies

“Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.”

[silvan4now]

hehe dragons and i say yes. this is mainly because they are the main reason the good guy saves the prices :P

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

If there are going to be dragons, I don't want them doing any more than being a mute cameo.

Same here.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

I like seeing gritty elves. In fact, I'm going to take this opportunity to ask for recommendation of books with messed up, evil/antihero, badass elves.

Give me some personality. Give me something I can relate to. I'm tired of "teenage dream" elves.

Elves usually bore me, regardless... so your request is particularly difficult for me, but I can't resist a few suggestions:

Shawn Oetzel's Dying Moon. An elf in a gritty, LA detective, noir-ish story.

Michael A. Stackpole's Once A Hero. They're elves. They're not really good, they're not really bad, but they're definitely not Peter Pan-ish.

I hear Chris Evan's Iron Elves Trilogy is quite gritty, but I've no first hand experience.

[Quake1028]

Hell. Yes.

[MrsJoseph]

I heart dragons.

[ekster]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I heart dragons.

I love their hearts. On a BBQ. Medium-rare. Yum!

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Elves usually bore me, regardless... so your request is particularly difficult for me, but I can't resist a few suggestions:

Shawn Oetzel's Dying Moon. An elf in a gritty, LA detective, noir-ish story.

Michael A. Stackpole's Once A Hero. They're elves. They're not really good, they're not really bad, but they're definitely not Peter Pan-ish.

I hear Chris Evan's Iron Elves Trilogy is quite gritty, but I've no first hand experience.

Originally Posted by 5thWiggle

Terry Pratchett's Lords and Ladies

“Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.”

Thank you! I'll check those out.

[ATDrake]

Everything's Better With Dragons!™ (WARNING: that link goes to TV Tropes.)

Unfortunately, some stories are insufficiently good that even they cannot be ameliorated by the presence of dragons and/or use them in an inappropriate manner such that they might as well have no dragons in the first place because there's just no helping some tales.

Conversely some stories are very good indeed, even though they seem to lack apparent dragons to the untrained eye. You may safely assume that they do indeed contain stealthy invisible dragons lurking in the margins* and making everything better, much as medieval maps noted that they did†.

* ObNancyKress: "Occam's Razor… isn't the only way to shave."

† As did, apparently, the occasional "serpents of such great magnitude that they can swallow up a cow whole".

[Grimm]

Originally Posted by xg4bx

i like dragons lol. they've got to be aloof and look at humanity as a pest though or even just be wild predators ala the movie Reign of Fire. i dont want warm and fuzzy dragons.

This is inline more-so with what I like. I actually prefer the way Martin has been doing dragons in ASoIaF so far. I prefer my dragons not speak.

Elves... nah.

Zombies are ok but they better not be fast. Zombies are slow shambling creatures.