09-16-2012, 06:54 PM | #91 | |
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I wonder if there are any Microsoft fan-boys lurking about to come to MS's defense? |
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09-16-2012, 07:56 PM | #92 |
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Anything wrong with fan-girls?
I used to like Microsoft, well Windows to be more exact. I liked that there was a plethora of PC makers to choose from. The same goes for Android today. What I have never liked are proprietary solutions, that is why I don't like the iPhone, or to be more precise, that is why I won't buy an iPhone. The proprietary connector is a deal breaker for me, even if it technically is superior to a micro USB. Lots of Japanese PC makers also produced gadgets with proprietary connectors and cables, hence they lost out to Taiwanese makers. |
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09-16-2012, 08:03 PM | #93 | |
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09-17-2012, 12:20 AM | #94 | |
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In China, the first question of workers applying for a job has always been "do you have overtime"? Over the past 20 years, however, the answer they expect has changed. 20 years ago they were hoping for "yes, we work plenty of overtime", that way more money could be made. But now we are looking at the generation of the "little emperors". Single children, that were coddled by their parents. Hard work is not on the menu. They would rather have more free time than more money. The $500.- I gave is without overtime. Forget your Dickensian horror scenarios, not that they don't exist in China at all (some small local companies still ride their employees real hard, probably turning out the $70.- tablets and other ultra-cheap items), but not at big companies working for international brands. Those are under constant scrutiny, they couldn't do that even if they wanted it. Besides, do you really think that a company like Foxconn wouldn't want to hire workers that are motivated, skilled, and work hard? Could the cheapest of the cheap workers even function in such an environment? |
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09-17-2012, 01:36 AM | #95 |
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Fits into the 5:1 ratio of MSRP to CoM (cost of material) which seems to be an industry standard in the hi-fi audio world.
I suspect that a lot of commercial goods on the market have a similar ratio although you have the occasional items like the Kindle or Xbox360, who actually lose money on the item but make it back in the accompanying 'software'. |
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09-17-2012, 09:18 AM | #96 | |
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When Apple says they're going to release an Iphone 5 on a certain date, the factories go into overdrive, with workers taking on two sometimes three shifts in a row without rest. For a lot of these people this is the only game in town if they want to make some money. As for the 'little emperors' you talk about, they will not be found in computer factories and represent a very small portion of the population. |
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09-17-2012, 09:21 AM | #97 | |
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I'm most certainly against globalization and the cruel realities it creates for people. Yes. Its easy for the victorious in this economic world we live in, to claim that their system is the most ideal above all others, and claim superiority to all past history. Certainly. |
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09-17-2012, 01:35 PM | #98 | |
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However, the alternative to globalization is not 'old Indian socialism'. Its non globalization or lets say ethically controlled global trade. Gosh kind of reminds me of the Opium wars a little bit. So in that case the British were exporting from China but this upset their balance of trade, so they came up with the perfect solution. Why not sell Opium back to the Chinese, and as they get addicted to it, the balance will be assured. Britain gets the materials and goods it wants, and the Chinese... well let them eat cake, (or opium in this case) as far as the British were concerned. Eventually an invasion was needed to maintain this order of affairs, and this was accomplished with brute force. (Can you blame the Chinese for disagreeing with western policy these days after what happened?) But wait, what if they'd thought of something even better! How about getting the Chinese to grow the poppies themselves and then sell it back to them as opium for huge profit. Control of the economy, and no invasion needed! Of course Opium is a narcotic, but in a way Apple has managed through intense advertising and clever software to make their products something of a narcotic as well. China's the largest market and the holy grail for them so they use aggressive lawsuits to destroy any imitators and create a myth around their product. Now the Chinese have been organized by such supply masterminds as Tim Cook , to mine the materials, assemble the dirty batteries, and create the device. And then the devices can be sold back to those workers for massive profit. And soon the Chinese are locked into a binding relationship by international laws dictated from the World bank and so forth, from which they cannot escape. This my friend is why globalization fails, because it will naturally favor the strongest party in the world. The law maker, the ones with the army to back up and maintain 'stability'. There should be an alternative to this. In the Opium wars, the British should not have been allowed to invade, when the government complained. And of course if they hadn't their business would have failed because it would be revealed as faulty and unethical. Gosh even when China trys to claim its rightful territory and stewardship over the surrounding waters, the cabal of western mafia nations won't let them and encircle them with military threats. So backed up by an unfair system, American companies like Apple are pirates, plunderers, the new opium traders ....for the new century!! |
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09-17-2012, 01:57 PM | #99 |
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<skip rant about the Opium trade>
Do you actually have something relevant to say? I know there are a lot of people who don't like Apple, but it is a new high to equate them to the British Opium wars! |
09-17-2012, 02:05 PM | #100 | |
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So what I say is totally relevant and on the topic of the thread. For the iPhones cost is more than just a bill of materials. |
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09-17-2012, 02:10 PM | #101 |
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As difficult as it is to watch people get beaten up verbally, and as much as I'd like to root for you, OmegaZoid, I have to ask: You do realize this isn't a political forum, don't you? If others on this thread began extolling the virtues of Milton Friedman and castigating Noam Chomsky, that, too, would be outside the comfort zone of this thread.
People can't just presume that inhumane work conditions in China are entirely about Apple because the company is ridiculously successful. If conditions are inhumane in other outsourced factories, then all of it should be addressed, don't you think? I like Samsung's products, but they've been accused of as much exploitation as Apple and they're not American. Buying a Galaxy S3 is fun for the user, but it's not a de facto stand taken against the exploitation of Chinese workers. And it's strange to hear you talk to Hans as if he doesn't understand the country in which he lives. I'd still like to see a comparison of smartphone manufacturing costs that included all the major companies. Last edited by Prestidigitweeze; 09-17-2012 at 03:28 PM. |
09-17-2012, 09:09 PM | #102 | ||
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Considering that all countries will always have problems, I think the little emperor and consumerism problems are the kinds of problems we want to have. Quote:
The Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands controversy just doesn't fit your US/UK-the-exploiters model. The attempt to turn even the unlikeliest news story into another piece of evidence for your POV does not help your argument. Given current device choices, are you against mobile reading? And what kind of computer are you using right now? ____________________ * My interpretation of this from #94: "But now we are looking at the generation of the 'little emperors'. Single children, that were coddled by their parents. Hard work is not on the menu. They would rather have more free time than more money." Last edited by SteveEisenberg; 09-17-2012 at 09:14 PM. |
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09-17-2012, 09:19 PM | #103 | |
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09-17-2012, 09:26 PM | #104 | |
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1.)Little emperors --- I suggest you read up on the "one-child policy". Due to this policy virtually ALL children are single children. This policy has been rigorously enforced over the decades, and only ethnic minorities (which account for only around 5% of the population) were exempt. It has been only slightly loosened over the last few years, still not nationwide. That means, basically, that every worker is a "little emperor", except the old ones. 2.)Workers from rural areas --- Did you know that Shenzhen and Dongguan were little fishing villages up to the mid 80s? Dongguan went from 80,000 to several million, all temporary immigrants from other provinces. Did you know that the number of workers in the factories in Guangdong exceeds the number of the original inhabitants? So yes, all the workers came from rural areas. What is wrong with that? That is how it worked everywhere in the world. People in rural areas looking for work in the cities --- how "awful". And the workers have money to send home to their families in rural areas, "disgusting"!. The workers from rural areas, 18-22 when they start out, are far away from the strict parental supervision and, believe it or not, like young people in the West like to party and not work around the clock. Worker in general now prefer not to work overtime. Obviously some would rather have more money, it takes all kinds, same as elsewhere. 3.)And that despicable Foxconn, working overtime right now to get rush orders out so that their customers have products before the Christmas rush. Shame on them. I guess their management should be stoned for ordering some overtime during the most busy times of the year? Well, dumb as I am, I don't see what else they could do and what is so wrong with that. Perhaps you could enlighten us? 4.)And I have more news for you. No company likes to work overtime. You have to pay 50 to 100% extra, that is extremely expensive. So companies avoid it like the plague and only do it when it is absolutely necessary. 5.)Is Foxconn cheaper than other suppliers? Yes, probably. Do they pay less? Definitely no. They wouldn't find any workers, especially good ones, if they did. They have economies of scale (they will pay less for supplies, machinery, they will be more efficient), they have a well thought out workflow, they have a great system of training and managing. Workers see opportunities for advancement and work hard to try to get ahead. I know that sounds sinister to you. Workers working for their own benefit, mind-boggling, isn't it? 6.)"The only game in town to make some money". Boy, I never laughed so hard. You will find tens of thousands of factories within an 2-3 hours drive from each other. You just have to walk to the factory gate next door and they will take you. The vast majority of factories are desperately looking for workers. Last edited by HansTWN; 09-17-2012 at 09:33 PM. |
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09-17-2012, 09:37 PM | #105 | |
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