"eBook versions of owned paper books" Popular Front

[PennyPie]

I still don't see why publishers should be required to go back and retroactively make things available for their past customers. It is a logistics nightmare, that ends up with them just losing money

Yep. I agree.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

On the fulfillment centers, that is stated too.

I still don't see why publishers should be required to go back and retroactively make things available for their past customers. It is a logistics nightmare, that ends up with them just losing money.

They shouldn't and won't unless it was part of the original sale.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by kennyc

They shouldn't and won't unless it was part of the original sale.

Yeah, but that was the point of this thread.

And while the original poster, braver, said that he'd be willing to pay, the amount required to make such a program fiscally feasible, you'd be paying not that much different than just buying it a second time out right.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Yeah, but that was the point of this thread.

And while the original poster, braver, said that he'd be willing to pay, the amount required to make such a program fiscally feasible, you'd be paying not that much different than just buying it a second time out right.

No, this is what the OP said (from post 1)

--------------
"I believe that as owners of paper books, we have every right to get the Kindle versions for free or only a nominal fee -- sharing the OCR and distribution costs, as well as transfer. Heck, I'd pay $5. Max. OK, $10... for some.

Now this won't happen unless we all self-organize and enlist journalists and congressmen in order for this to happen. In fact it applies to the whole ebook arena. What do you guys think? What is already done or being done on this front?"
------------


That's what I'm saying will never happen. It's not good business.

[Hellmark]

And I agree.

[Morlac]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

And I agree.

And even though I agree with the broader points you've made, I will insert a little caveat:

For the right publisher, with the right price point and a good public relations person, I *could* see this making sense. I'd look at it as a chance to get a fair amount of free publicity for backlist titles that've already been in paperback for some time. Make the offer to those who own the book already in any form, hardcover or paper, no matter whether they bought it used or new. Don't even bother trying to verify ownership -- make it an honor system.

The point being that it's more viable economically if you look at it as squeezing extra sales and publicity out of a mostly-dry well. And if you succeed wildly, great, maybe think about applying it to frontlist titles as well.

Of course, all of that is easier to say than to convince people to try it! Heck, I'm in publishing and I'm not sure it would work for me!

[Hellmark]

Yeah, as a publicity thing, it could work. If you're not thinking of that standpoint, well, it isn't worth it. Most publishers probably figure they can do without the publicity, that they are fine on their own.

[braver]

Hellmark -- are you a publisher or do you have publishing interests? You're consistently falling on the publishers' side, which, I believe, is not the majority side here.

The majority side are the new consumers of ebooks. And as a group, we have a new interest in digital upgrade.

Sure it's inconvenient for the status quo. My analogy is with the human rights in the US. You'd have to desegregate a lot of schools and buses, and eliminate a lot of signs, retrain the police and civil servants. It is inconvenient indeed -- but necessary.

Amazon has exact and perfect way to immediately and for all time verify Joe Schmoe's purchase of a specific book by a specific publisher. Depending on the structure of digital rights, this MAY give Amazon a WAY to OFFER a discount to Joe as a way to reward and retain Joe as a customer.

Now add market forces into the mix, and you get -- inevitability.

[Morlac]

Originally Posted by braver

Hellmark -- are you a publisher or do you have publishing interests? You're consistently falling on the publishers' side, which, I believe, is not the majority side here.

The majority side are the new consumers of ebooks. And as a group, we have a new interest in digital upgrade.

Sure it's inconvenient for the status quo. My analogy is with the human rights in the US. You'd have to desegregate a lot of schools and buses, and eliminate a lot of signs, retrain the police and civil servants. It is inconvenient indeed -- but necessary.

Amazon has exact and perfect way to immediately and for all time verify Joe Schmoe's purchase of a specific book by a specific publisher. Depending on the structure of digital rights, this MAY give Amazon a WAY to OFFER a discount to Joe as a way to reward and retain Joe as a customer.

Now add market forces into the mix, and you get -- inevitability.

braver --

I'm not Hellmark, but my post is what he was agreeing with a moment ago. I'm also a publisher (a tiny, specialty one). And yes, of course publishers are in the minority -- here and in most venues.

However, I'm also an ebook consumer. I'm not really too sure which group is smaller at the moment!

I completely agree that Amazon has the capability to identify whether or not a given customer has or has not purchased a book from them. I don't think anybody's been arguing that point. I also sympathize that your position has been misperceived as asking for the e-versions for free when you're actually willing to pay something for them.

That said, what you want does require a fair bit of effort and negotiation. My own suggestion is in some ways simpler as it ignores completely the issues of verification of ownership and making the retailer persuade/coerce many separate publishers into giving a big discount.

In some ways, I think that you're getting frustrated by the responses you get in this thread because you can't see why more people don't agree with you. It seems to me that there are some big underlying reasons for that:

(a) A lot of folks on this forum are the hard-core early adopters who stopped buying printed books awhile ago. The Amazon proposal wouldn't help many of them.

(b) The "e-book" Amazon would provide would be a proprietary Kindle-only format. Outside of the US, that doesn't help many of the folks here.

(c) Going with (b) again, not everybody who has an e-reader owns a kindle. I don't, for example. So to the extent that Amazon is involved, it really doesn't help me.

For reasons (b-c) above, I think you'd be much more successful trying to rile up people here to push Amazon to sell the Kindle worldwide and give up the Kindle-only ebook model.

For what it's worth, I do think you're onto something, but it's much more likely to happen (if it does at all) by showing the publishers and retailers where the profit is, rather than by threatening them or comparing this issue to human rights!

Also, despite examples of bad behavior, do we really have to assume that publishers and consumers are on opposite "sides"? Any more so than consumers and any other producer or service provider, like farmers, teachers, or writers? Personally, I want to make a product that people like/enjoy/want enough to spend their money on. Our interests are not perfectly aligned, but it's not as simple as opposing sides, either.

[kennyc]

+

It's just simply not a good idea to create more/new laws telling free-market businesses what to do, there is too much of that already.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by braver

Hellmark -- are you a publisher or do you have publishing interests? You're consistently falling on the publishers' side, which, I believe, is not the majority side here.

The majority side are the new consumers of ebooks. And as a group, we have a new interest in digital upgrade.

Sure it's inconvenient for the status quo. My analogy is with the human rights in the US. You'd have to desegregate a lot of schools and buses, and eliminate a lot of signs, retrain the police and civil servants. It is inconvenient indeed -- but necessary.

Amazon has exact and perfect way to immediately and for all time verify Joe Schmoe's purchase of a specific book by a specific publisher. Depending on the structure of digital rights, this MAY give Amazon a WAY to OFFER a discount to Joe as a way to reward and retain Joe as a customer.

Now add market forces into the mix, and you get -- inevitability.

No, not a publisher, I just understand that companies are around to make a profit, and if they're not doing it, they will stop and change things till they are. That includes if they have to change markets entirely. Ebooks are currently a niche market, something that makes up something in the neighborhood of 5% book sales, on the biggest sellers. Publishers have been arguing against ebooks, and saying it isn't worthwhile. I'd rather them get in, build the market, and be able to afford to do stuff, rather than do something that only loses them money. We have to work to win over the publishers first. Hell, we can't even get some publishers to have ebooks sell near, or even at, paperbook prices. I've seen some want more for the ebook than the hardback. You want me to go to them and say "Hey, why don't you give me a copy of this book, because I bought it five years ago? Say, here's a buck for your troubles."

Where is the logic?

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by braver

The contents is the same, and the fact that you don't think you're entitled to it in all possible shapes means you're still in the 20th century, or are a perfect customer for RIAA and the like, or both.

The 21st century model should be, you buy content at a certain a level of quality, and then are entitled to it in all media forms.

Why would one have to re-buy a book in an incompatible format? Why would one have to re-buy a song he owns on iTunes for some other format?

This would be true in a perfect world. We are not there...not by a long shot.

Besides...capitalism = greed. Why would they give you for free what they could use to separate you from a bit more of your capital?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

No, not a publisher, I just understand that companies are around to make a profit, and if they're not doing it, they will stop and change things till they are. That includes if they have to change markets entirely. Ebooks are currently a niche market, something that makes up something in the neighborhood of 5% book sales, on the biggest sellers. Publishers have been arguing against ebooks, and saying it isn't worthwhile. I'd rather them get in, build the market, and be able to afford to do stuff, rather than do something that only loses them money. We have to work to win over the publishers first. Hell, we can't even get some publishers to have ebooks sell near, or even at, paperbook prices. I've seen some want more for the ebook than the hardback. You want me to go to them and say "Hey, why don't you give me a copy of this book, because I bought it five years ago? Say, here's a buck for your troubles."

Where is the logic?

Well said.

[braver]

Morlac -- I think you're right about the audience motivation. Early adopters don't buy much paper on Amazon or bn.com and worldwide Kindle/Amazon is not such a leader as in the US, plus of course DRM smells.

Yet I do buy most of my books on Amazon and now got the Kindle! I also had worked for Amazon before and am a Prime member. It doesn't give me any discounts, but I know that my people understand technology well. DRM is the publishers' decision -- Amazon is run on Linux and all geeks are pro-Open-Source. So I'd separate the DRM question.

Still I think that Amazon and now B&N are in a unique position to complement paper with ebooks, and it's going to happen, sooner or later. Too bad if you're elsewhere in the world, but the US is the cradle of technosocial and business innovation, so you'll have to look up to us and follow the lead... Not much to work with here.

After some perusal of the Kindle, I often go back to my paper books -- because they are black on WHITE, not black on grey. Some books I'll always prefer on paper, such as leather-bound classics. Yet a lot of books are perfect for the Kindle -- heavy manuals, NYT bestsellers which are $10 each, etc. I generally buy computer books in a dual format, such as from Manning early access program (MEAP) -- the PDF is available at once, which goes onto the DX, and the paper arrives when released.

So I still think for those who like to sit on both chairs, the digital upgrade model will work well. The question is to social-engineer it properly.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by braver

DRM is the publishers' decision -- Amazon is run on Linux and all geeks are pro-Open-Source. So I'd separate the DRM question.

Some publishers who post here have said the Amazon contract demands the right for Amazon to put DRM on the books at their discretion; publishers cannot refuse to allow DRM on their Kindlebooks.