02-24-2018, 01:48 AM | #91 | |
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For a book said to be about passing, there are many things that are overlooked or skimmed over. But it's worth noticing something Bookpossum posted on the first page:
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* The title is Passing and it was written and set in 1920s Harlem, * It is ambiguous, allowing a reader to impose almost any interpretation over the text that they want. What a boon to modern academia, a book that can be "studied" that will support any intended purpose. It will not be the first book to have suffered (or benefited from) this. But I think a dispassionate look at the text shows that much of what has been attributed to the text has actually been imposed on it from the outside. By saying nothing the book can be said to be saying anything. (There is a corollary from science: a theory that can explain anything explains nothing.) In reality this short novella has many weaknesses and omissions, however you decide to interpret it, and is obviously an early work of a author; it is a book of unrealised potential. (Forgivably so, so early in her career, and so all the larger shame that she decided not to continue that career). |
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02-24-2018, 04:30 AM | #92 |
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It was her second novel, the first being called Quicksand, as I think Catlady pointed out a while back in the thread. Perhaps the ambiguities are more because we don’t know the times, the place or the sorts of people of whom she writes. Apparently it was well thought of at the time. But it is true she did not write much - a handful of short stories apart from the two longer works. It doesn’t seem to be known why she stopped writing, but her personal situation changed, and that may well have had an influence.
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02-24-2018, 06:12 AM | #93 | ||
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Quicksand may have been the first, but at only 46,000 words it is also just a novella. Wikipedia notes only 8 short stories. So although we must assume there was other writing prior to these publications, that is still not much experience, hence I am inclined to be forgiving of the novel's weaknesses.
Wikipedia notes of Passing: Quote:
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ETA: I agree that there are some things we may be missing because of our isolation from that time and place - but the more I see of modern interpretation (by presumed knowledgeable scholars) the more it seems those ambiguities actually exist. So it would seem we are left with wondering if the ambiguities were intentional (the work of an artist in full control on their work) or accidental (the work of an artist still learning what they can and cannot get away with). Given the various omissions from the work, I am inclined to think the latter is more likely. Last edited by gmw; 02-24-2018 at 06:38 AM. |
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02-24-2018, 09:06 AM | #94 |
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I find it interesting that although Irene is the POV character, the original title, Nig, seems to focus the story on Clare. I don't know what to make of that, but presumably it means something.
Going back to the ending--I keep trying to find the ambiguity, but I just can't. Irene pushing Clare is the only interpretation that makes sense, both in the way Irene's actions and reactions are written in the last scenes, and in terms of the structure of the book. From the moment Clare enters Irene's world at the restaurant, Irene wants to eliminate her. First it's by trying to ignore her, then it's by considering how to sabotage her marriage to Jack, and then it's by pushing her away--literally. It's a progression and an escalation with only one possible outcome. Seeing it as accident or suicide instead of murder takes away the power of the scene, and of the story itself. |
02-24-2018, 10:00 AM | #95 | |
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I think it comes down to which parts you believe were intentional and which parts you believe were mistakes (or unlikely scenarios) by the author. You pointed out at the the third-person telling could be more reliable than first-person, from which we might gather that we are expected to believe the hints we are given. But I'm not convinced that this inexperienced writer made the third-person choice deliberately for that purpose - as the distinction is quite subtle. Whereas I (perhaps inappropriately) gave the writer credit for making me distrust Irene's PoV very early on, which means I was already set up to distrust the hints at the end. As a result I see the "glaring problems" mentioned in the first paragraph as being the way the author has given us to see past Irene's misleading hints. I don't even think there was an affair between Clare and Brian. (Is this any less subtle than the third-person thing? I think so, but ) I am now more confused than I was when I first read it, because I now see that suicide is the only thing that makes sense out of their being no scream, but I never saw Clare as suicidal. So if the author made an error in this aspect, or expects us to believe Clare fell with no vocal objection, then maybe she also expects us to believe that Irene could have pushed Clare with no one noticing (even though they were all watching). Just how forgiving do I have to be, and of what? |
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02-24-2018, 12:15 PM | #96 | ||
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That makes suicide extremely unlikely. Accident is also unlikely--she would have had to back away from Jack, and everything we know about her is that she does not back away from confrontation or danger. Recall an early description of Clare: Quote:
Whatever happened wasn't obvious to the onlookers--murder, suicide, accident. Since all eyes should have been on Clare and Jack, whichever it is, someone should have seen it, but no one did, so that alone doesn't point to any of the possibilities (though it makes suicide least likely). Unless you mean that Irene wouldn't have acted in front of witnesses, but that assumes she acted rationally and after calm consideration, which isn't the case here. |
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02-24-2018, 06:27 PM | #97 |
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Perhaps it was in the same way that Rebecca was and wasn’t about Rebecca. Clare’s reappearance in her life changed Irene’s life for ever, as well as the lives of the various others in the story.
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02-24-2018, 06:30 PM | #98 | |||
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But sure, I may be reading far too much into the few details provided. Mostly I'm trying to show how I read it differently to you, and so why I consider it to be ambiguous. I would not be at all surprised to learn that, in the author's eyes/intention, CRussel was correct: Quite possibly Larsen didn't care as much about this scene as (non-academic) readers were always going to. |
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02-24-2018, 06:37 PM | #99 |
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And see how much fun we are all having with it!
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02-24-2018, 07:04 PM | #100 |
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While it's too late for Larsen to learn from what we see here, other writers might look at this and notice that we have spent a disproportionate amount of time discussing the last scene. If the intention of the author was to talk about race and passing then we might see this book as a failure, because the readers' attention has been drawn away from that by the puzzle of the last scene. However, if the intention of the author was to present a character study of Irene and/or Clare then we might judge the book a success, because this final puzzle focuses the reader on the characters: what they meant by everything they said and did, how they would or should have reacted. |
02-24-2018, 07:13 PM | #101 |
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I see the book as a character study of Irene and how the eruption of Clare into her life tipped her from smaller (but still life-changing) manipulations of others, especially of Brian, into suspicion, rage and murder.
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02-24-2018, 07:38 PM | #102 |
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Ooh, that's interesting: the manipulations of Brian. There is, at least, noticeable condescension, but Irene does not appear to have been so passive in this relationship (as she is with Clare). Irene and Brian are, after all, still in New York. So either Irene is wrong about what Brian wants (a possibility) or she has managed to keep them there against his preference. I tended to think that much of Brian's behaviour was a reaction to Irene. In this regard he made me think of Mr Bennett in Pride and Prejudice, a sort of long suffering acquiescence.
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02-24-2018, 08:08 PM | #103 | |||||
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Regarding the author's intention, I would argue that she did not intend the reader to see ambiguity--everything Larsen has told us about the characters and the events points to Irene being the agent of Clare's death. Irene, though, pretends otherwise--and again, this pretense is completely in character for her. How do you explain these passages: Quote:
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Last edited by Catlady; 02-24-2018 at 08:13 PM. |
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02-24-2018, 08:11 PM | #104 |
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02-24-2018, 11:36 PM | #105 | ||
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It's got to be easier than looking. More seriously, I have no idea.
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Doing nothing would be in character for Irene, whereas the stretch to actually taking action is what the hints before the fall were leading us to be willing to accept. But I don't trust Irene, not even in third-person, so my explanation for those passages is simply Irene being self-centred and self-important again - everything is always about her (Irene). To again quote my favourite line of the book: Quote:
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