MobileRead For the 2016 categories, as a 1st step, can we....

[issybird]

Easiest of all would be to let Jon set a slate of twelve books.

A few observations, noting that hasn't been said: It's important not to conflate one's own preferences with what is best for the group. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean others don't or it's not worth reading.

It's illogical to say that people don't participate because they don't like the choices, because somehow books not nominated or with fewer votes would lead to more participation. Most (not all) of the categories were broad enough to admit any time frame. As an aside, I think seven of twelve choices last year were post WWII and six from the past 25 years.

That said, it's important to guard against a consistent scant majority or plurality imposing its choices every month. I don't think it's all that likely, but perception counts. People shouldn't feel excluded or as if their tastes are never taken into account.

Still, there seems to be very little collegiality in the club. Mostly people seem unwilling to read something they wouldn't have read anyway. I think this is the big issue with lack of participation.

I'm a democrat. I'd like to see popular input into category selection. If people vote for it, they should be willing to read it. My own suggestion would be a poll, where each person could vote for up to three categories. That would prevent the disenfranchisement of any minority. I know the software doesn't support it, but when the votong's done the community could police and anyone who went over the limit eliminated. Oh, and Jon will like this, a closed poll so people can't game their choices

[treadlightly]

Originally Posted by issybird

I'm a democrat. I'd like to see popular input into category selection. If people vote for it, they should be willing to read it. My own suggestion would be a poll, where each person could vote for up to three categories. That would prevent the disenfranchisement of any minority. I know the software doesn't support it, but when the votong's done the community could police and anyone who went over the limit eliminated. Oh, and Jon will like this, a closed poll so people can't game their choices

I don't understand the rationale behind giving everyone only three votes and not twelve. Can you please explain?

[issybird]

Originally Posted by treadlightly

I don't understand the rationale behind giving everyone only three votes and not twelve. Can you please explain?

If it's felt there are cliques or cabals, one with a tiny majority would select the whole slate with its twelve votes. With three, minority groups get more input.

[treadlightly]

Originally Posted by issybird

If it's felt there are cliques or cabals, one with a tiny majority would select the whole slate with its twelve votes. With three, minority groups get more input.

Ok, I understand what you are saying but I doubt there are intentional cliques, just people with common interests. I'm just guessing here, and without having a poll there is no way to know, but I would think SF, Fantasy and Mystery would be very popular categories. So if those are your favourite genres, your votes are used up and you have no input on the other 9 categories.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by treadlightly

Ok, I understand what you are saying but I doubt there are intentional cliques, just people with common interests. I'm just guessing here, and without having a poll there is no way to know, but I would think SF, Fantasy and Mystery would be very popular categories. So if those are your favourite genres, your votes are used up and you have no input on the other 9 categories.

Well, then, you'll have your three favorite genres. That's the point, those with minority interests would have a shot. And somebody's got to vote for those favorites after all. You can always guess they'll be picked and vote for something else, but that's why the poll should be closed- you take your chances with that strategy.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Perhaps we should post a poll on what selection process we should use.

* Vote on individual lists.
* Vote on 30 categories and keep the 11 most popular.
* A hybrid approach: Vote on 30 categories, keep the 6 most popular, then have members draw up lists of the 5 remaining categories and vote on them.
* Let me dictate the categories (Dazrin and sun surfer suggested this).
* Other....

A poll sounds good, and I like your hybrid approach idea too. I like all the ideas - it's going to be hard for me to decide what to vote for!

Not to seem to pick on HomeInMyShoes who has some excellent ideas here, but . . .

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

And I'll throw out my list of categories. I've removed everything non-genre except for the Patricia Clarke Memorial Library. It's a large portion of why MobileRead exists and we should celebrate it.

JAN SecondChance
FEB Romance
MAR Thriller/Suspense
APR Humor
MAY Fantasy
JUN PCML
JUL Fiction
AUG NonFiction
SEP Mystery/Crime
OCT Horror
NOV Science Fiction
DEC FreeForAll

I like JSWolf's idea of Second Chance in December and a book from last year in January, but I think it's easier on the admins to put SecondChance in January.

So Fiction is supposedly a separate genre from Romance, Thriller/Suspense, Humor, Fantasy, Mystery/Crime, Horror, & Science Fiction? Silly me I would have said that seven latter are just genres within fiction. That and non-Fiction could include so many genres, eg. Biography, History, Science, Social Science, Philosophy, to list a few. But then about half of what I read is non-Fiction. I also realize that my personal preferences are not likely to please the majority of book club members.

Anyway I've no objection to what ever is selected to for the monthly categories for this club. With the formation of the separate Literary Club almost every month I can find something appealing there. I do like the idea of WTSharpe just picking the categories though. It will avoid the endless squabbling that will never leave everyone happy. I can think of a few people who if they totally got their way would leave many totally put off. Like a few here have said I value discussion participation much more highly that just vote count. A book club without discussion is really not accomplishing much.

[treadlightly]

As per this poll, the 12 most popular genres in order were:

Science Fiction
Fantasy
Mystery
Historical Fiction
General Fiction
Nonfiction
Comedy
Other
(Auto)Biographies
Romance
Vampires(?)
True Crime

Of course, that was based on the list constructed for the poll.

[sun surfer]

Originally Posted by issybird

...That said, it's important to guard against a consistent scant majority or plurality imposing its choices every month. I don't think it's all that likely, but perception counts. People shouldn't feel excluded or as if their tastes are never taken into account...

Well said. I completely agree with your sentiment.

The only thing I would disagree with slightly is your opinion that it's not likely - I do think in recent years that those of us who like literary or older books often edge out other books and often just by a vote or two. That doesn't mean always obviously, but I think enough of the time that I've noticed it even though I'm often voting on the literary/older book side. For instance, if you look at 2014, I count 8 out of 12 winners that are either older and/or literary, which equals 2/3 of the year, and the first two winners this year are as well.

...Still, there seems to be very little collegiality in the club. Mostly people seem unwilling to read something they wouldn't have read anyway. I think this is the big issue with lack of participation...

Would you, though, read something for this club that you wouldn't have read anyway? I think I have a few times over the years for this club, but nowadays if I don't like the selection then I skip it (unlike the lit club, where I often read books I wouldn't have otherwise).

I do agree though that that is a big issue with participation. When we had 100 people voting years ago, if only say a fifth read the actual winner you still had 20 people reading and discussing it. With only 25 voters, a fifth reading the actual winner amounts to only five people. We have had good long discussion threads in the literary club with five or less posters, but I think posters in that club get a little more involved with the selections and that's why.

I don't know how to change that for the general club. It casts such a wide net and as such brings in such a diverse group of members that it's going to be hard to encourage more group involvement on a regular monthly basis. Do you have any ideas?

[sun surfer]

Here's a radical idea -

(and this is probably the worst time for it with club membership at its lowest, but this isn't necessarily meant to be taken seriously but rather to get people to think about it all from a different perspective)

What I see is that the problem many people have here is that people want more modern books and more genre books, but overall people who like older or literary books often win out. For the most part, regardless of what new categories we choose, that's not likely to change.

Well, what if we split the general club in two? We could keep a general club, and then also have a Modern Genre Book Club. In this new club offshoot, every nomination must be modern (i.e. after a certain date) and every category must be a popular genre such as Science Fiction, Fantasy, Mystery, Thriller, Romance, Humour, Horror, etc., etc. And that would even leave some room for more specific genres that the majority might like such as Urban Fantasy, Historical Fiction, Young Adult, etc.

Then, back at the general club, we could still have some genres, but that would free us up have/keep the more creative categories, like award winners, foreign, free for all, banned/challenged, PCML, etc.

And there could be overlap. Just as now we have a nonfiction category in the lit club and in the general club, there may for instance be a Mystery category in the Modern Genre club and also in the general club, etc.

Obviously, the main problems are who would run the other club (not me!) and even with someone running it, keeping good participation with both. But it would without a doubt solve the problem people are complaining of with regards to winners in this club, and in a way that new book club would balance out the lit club so that the general club would then be sitting comfortably in the middle.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Not to seem to pick on HomeInMyShoes who has some excellent ideas here, but . . .

So Fiction is supposedly a separate genre from Romance, Thriller/Suspense, Humor, Fantasy, Mystery/Crime, Horror, & Science Fiction? Silly me I would have said that seven latter are just genres within fiction. That and non-Fiction could include so many genres, eg. Biography, History, Science, Social Science, Philosophy, to list a few. But then about half of what I read is non-Fiction. I also realize that my personal preferences are not likely to please the majority of book club members.

I'm worth picking on and it's a valid point and good question.

They are just genres within fiction. Fiction was the last category I added to my list. I was looking through all the books I've read worth sharing in the last few years and there was no place to nominate most of them. They are non-genre fiction. Without plain fiction we are missing a large portion of books out there. I am hypocritical in that respect. Why fiction and non-fiction mean different things. One is about including and one is about excluding? I can only argue personal preference. Your preference or anyone else's is no more wrong or right than my preference.

I want the book club to be fiction and not non-fiction. Some may want more non-fiction than fiction. Which is where Issybird's point about subgroups and categories makes a lot of sense. I might go with four votes per person, but that's a statistical argument based on an assumption of sample size and what I think I know about the group (all of which could be wrong.)

I see lots of potential non-fiction categories: history, biography, self-help, health, religion, philosophy, cooking, etc. being viable categories. We make guesses, but I don't think we're a religion and cooking bookclub. Maybe we are though, maybe that's what is wrong. I am perfectly willing to brainstorm and be mocked and be wrong. I know I am one of those weird people that just reads plain fiction and am a complete geek about a few splinter subjects. Who here wants to read about information and classification, urban planning, music, math, and human-computer interaction?

[issybird]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

Would you, though, read something for this club that you wouldn't have read anyway? I think I have a few times over the years for this club, but nowadays if I don't like the selection then I skip it (unlike the lit club, where I often read books I wouldn't have otherwise).

Well, I wasn't going to pursue this, but.... I've read a lot of books I wasn't interested in during my involvement with the club. My feeling was that if I wanted people to read books I nominated, then I owed them the courtesy of reading their nominations if they won. But I got frustrated; it seemed to me I read several books of really no interest to me when even the nominators couldn't be bothered. So last year I decided to stop nominating books so then I wouldn't feel obligated; I only read if I feel like it.

That's hardly the response we want to engender. I used to put a lot of effort into nominations and I really valued the process. I'm not saying people should read something they know they'd loathe (I wouldn't), but I think if this is to be a club, more people should try things outside their comfort zone. That's why I'd like people to feel more invested in the selection and voting and then, ideally, they'd feel more invested in the outcome. Frankly, I think moral suasion is the only way to achieve this and I don't know how successful it would be.

In a real-life book club, there's the pizza and beer as an incentive. I can't come up with the virtual equivalent.

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

I want the book club to be fiction and not non-fiction. Some may want more non-fiction than fiction. Which is where Issybird's point about subgroups and categories makes a lot of sense. I might go with four votes per person, but that's a statistical argument based on an assumption of sample size and what I think I know about the group (all of which could be wrong.)

<snip>

Who here wants to read about information and classification, urban planning, music, math, and human-computer interaction?

I love non-fiction and read a lot of it, but I think it's less club-friendly. I'd still like to see more than one month, but that's not a critical issue for me. Four votes would be fine with me, too - just the sense that every vested interest or subgroup would give a little, get a little. No one should feel they could or should influence all the category choices.

As for urban planning, I've got Robert Caro's massive biography of Robert Moses queued up for the summer, when I'll have more time than I do now.

[crich70]

True Crime by its definition is part of Non-Fiction.

[JSWolf]

I'm slightly redoing my list as I read what others are posting.

Jan - Published in the Previous Year (but not an Amazon exclusive)
Feb - Romance
Mar - Science Fiction
Apr - Humor
May - Nonfiction
Jun - Modern Fiction (1980 onwards)
Jul - Free for all
Aug - Modern Classic (written during or after WWII)
Sep - Fantasy
Oct - Mystery/True Crime
Nov - Patricia Clark Memorial Library
Dec - Second Chance (the year's second place titles)

I've changed two of the categories to allow more non-fiction and to allow more older books.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by issybird

In a real-life book club, there's the pizza and beer as an incentive. I can't come up with the virtual equivalent.
...
As for urban planning, I've got Robert Caro's massive biography of Robert Moses queued up for the summer, when I'll have more time than I do now.

Beer. Mmmmm. ..

My participation dropped the last couple of years because I just buried myself in too much challenges. I am back now and I am going to read The Age of Innocence which has two strikes going in for me: romance; and that stuffy era feel. That said I really enjoyed Wharton ' s Ethan Frome. So there is hope.

I am usually up for trying almost anything and I as making a concerted effort this year to read.

I read Wrestling with Moses. I'm not sure I'd be up for his biography. Maybe.