(sigh), Kindle/KPF format Blues...

[slowsmile]

The "special treatment" concerns the special services that Amazon provides for the Big Five publishers at a price that no indie publisher can afford or is allowed to use. This means that, for the Big Five, their books will always be formatted, presented and sold according to a higher quality standard than other publishers that don't qualify for their "special treatment". And, before you ask, I don't know what the special services are because they're never broadcast on the Web and seems to be a well-kept Kindle secret -- you could try asking Hitch about that side of it.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by slowsmile

The "special treatment" concerns the special services that Amazon provides for the Big Five publishers at a price that no indie publisher can afford or is allowed to use. This means that, for the Big Five, their books will always be formatted, presented and sold according to a higher quality standard than other publishers that don't qualify for their "special treatment". And, before you ask, I don't know what the special services are because they're never broadcast on the Web and seems to be a well-kept Kindle secret -- you could try asking Hitch about that side of it.

Uhhhh. Crapdoodle. Okay, I can't really talk about this, but I can absolutely, positively say that there's no "special treatment" in terms of books being formatted to some "higher standard." That is absopositively not correct.

There aren't any magic tools or magic coders. Topaz is a thing of a bygone era. Now, you get EXACTLY the same books that everybody else does, if you happen to send your book to the larger formatters, world-wide. Amazon does have an approved list of companies that they use for book formatting--that's also public knowledge. But ALL of those companies are available for hire by John Doe.

The big difference is the coding that can fly by when you're FTPing files, rather than uploading them through the KDP interface. You can have embedded video, audio, that sort of thing.

But if you have your basic non-fiction 'How to" book of some ilk, it's not going to be any differently coded, or have different features, than any other eBook coming out of that same...area of formatters.

That's really all I can say and that's mostly public knowledge, if you've spent any time discussing stuff with Amazon (both Seattle and India).

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by slowsmile

@Hitch...


Well, if we're talking about tools, I've recently dumped Scrivener as my favorite converter and gone back to using Jutoh again and have grown to love that app. With its new updated and easier-to-use user interface, it's the best of the bunch now IMHO because converting to epub using Jutoh also leaves me with the least number of tasks to do in Sigil. Jutoh now gives you a huge amount of fine control over your output epub. It's document cleanup is also unparalleled because it's cleanup goes well beyond just cleaning the cruft from your file(Jutoh cleanup now has 37 options).

The Jutoh website looks like a really bad infomercial in web form. They really need to fix that mess.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Uhhhh. Crapdoodle. Okay, I can't really talk about this, but I can absolutely, positively say that there's no "special treatment" in terms of books being formatted to some "higher standard." That is absopositively not correct.

There aren't any magic tools or magic coders. Topaz is a thing of a bygone era. Now, you get EXACTLY the same books that everybody else does, if you happen to send your book to the larger formatters, world-wide. Amazon does have an approved list of companies that they use for book formatting--that's also public knowledge. But ALL of those companies are available for hire by John Doe.

The big difference is the coding that can fly by when you're FTPing files, rather than uploading them through the KDP interface. You can have embedded video, audio, that sort of thing.

But if you have your basic non-fiction 'How to" book of some ilk, it's not going to be any differently coded, or have different features, than any other eBook coming out of that same...area of formatters.

That's really all I can say and that's mostly public knowledge, if you've spent any time discussing stuff with Amazon (both Seattle and India).

Hitch

And for eBooks that are nothing special in terms of formatting, it's very easy to make well formatted (under the hood and what the user sees) eBooks. I can take your average novel put out by one of the big 5 and reformat it so it is even better formatted and the code is better under the hood.

I don't need special treatment to upload a well formatted eBook to Amazon or Kobo or Smashwords. I just ave to make the eBook properly and there is no way I would put out an eBook that wasn't well formatted with good clean code.

[Notjohn]

>I don't need special treatment to upload a well formatted eBook

Or templates or Jutoh or Scrivener. To me, all that stuff just seems to get in the way.

I do find the KDP Print Cover Creator a splendid tool, and I would of course be lost without Sigil (though this platform's Sigil forum is often disagreeable).

[JSWolf]

How is the code from Jutoh? Is there an ePub to look at that was made with Jutoh?

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

The big difference is the coding that can fly by when you're FTPing files, rather than uploading them through the KDP interface. You can have embedded video, audio, that sort of thing.

Exactly.

You have the extremely rare things (that an even smaller percentage of ebooks even need):

• <audio> + <video>
  • Hell to code, and a ton of devices don't even have sound.
• Kindle in Motion
  • Remember that failure? 28 books total.

and then a lot of B2B enhancements, which again, nobody needs unless you're mass selling:

• FTP Upload
  
  • Can you imagine all the dreck self-publishers would be uploading?
• ONIX
  
  • A metadata standard that allows you to programmatically push/update information across retailers.
    
  • If you wanted more info on this, see this ebookcraft talks:
    
    • ebookcraft 2018: "The Metadata is the Message: Balancing standards with real life requirements in ONIX"
      
    • ebookcraft 2014: "Combining Print and Digital Metadata Workflows"
      
• Magazines/Journals

A self-publisher who publishes a few books a year... they don't even need access to those "special tools", and they don't even have the technical background needed (ONIX is itself this crazy XML standard).

Originally Posted by slowsmile

And, before you ask, I don't know what the special services are because they're never broadcast on the Web and seems to be a well-kept Kindle secret -- you could try asking Hitch about that side of it.

"If I tell you, I'd have to kill you."

Great sidestepping, masterful work!

Originally Posted by slowsmile

I disagree with most of what you say mainly because you haven't scaled in Amazon's greed factor for profit.

If they're so "greedy for profit", all the more reason they would want to cut costs dramatically. (Which they have done, consistently, then pass on all those savings to customers + authors [in much higher % royalties].)

Originally Posted by slowsmile

Most people know that the Big Five publishers already get special treatment by Amazon which they will happily pay for but the ordinary indie publisher cannot afford. And I hardly think that Amazon would reveal their "special treatment" of the Big Five at conferences. That would create quite a stir wouldn't it, with indie publisher's angrily screaming "Unfair advantage!!".

Again, this is just absolutely absurd.

If anything, they put self-publishers on a drastically MORE even playing field. Anyone can get their books sitting on Amazon right next to any of the big guys.

In the old bookstores, you can't even get your books on the shelves (and in many ways, self-publishers STILL can't).

Amazon has enabled more self-publishers to make even more money than ever before.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I don't need special treatment to upload a well formatted eBook to Amazon or Kobo or Smashwords. I just ave to make the eBook properly and there is no way I would put out an eBook that wasn't well formatted with good clean code.

Exactly. And Amazon has done more for self-publishers than anyone else within the past few decades:

• Ease of use
• Ease of selling/buying
• Ease of creation
• Easy ecosystem
  • One click on Kindle and bam, book is in your hands, all synced up.

They've blown the pants off the competition... which is why they're dominating ebook sales.

Side Note: A lot of this discussion reminds me of Steam in the PC video game market. Here was a recent talk they gave at GDC 2019 (Game Developers Conference):

Steam Business Update / GDC 2019

They consistently outperformed all their competitors by always innovating (both for customers + developers), and always expanding to new markets:

• New languages/countries
• Accepting new monies+forms of payment
• expanding into Linux gaming
• [...]

So again, a look into the behind-the-scenes of a multi-billion dollar Amazon-like company.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

How is the code from Jutoh? Is there an ePub to look at that was made with Jutoh?

For a book club I'm in, I recently got an ebook that was formatted in the "amazing" Vellum. The code looks... not great:

Spoiler:

<body id="5N3C0-abc04c2609aa446198d6cd8a412fa940">
<div id="chapter-001" class="title-page-contributor-primary-block"><header class="heading" id="chapter-001-heading">
<div class="title-subtitle-block">
<div class="element-number-block"><h2 class="element-number1">1</h2>
</div>
<div class="title-page-contributor-primary-block">
<h3 class="title1">The Power of Reinvention</h3>
</div>
</div>

</header>
<div class="title-page-contributor-primary-block" id="chapter-001-text">
<p class="first"><span><span class="first-letter1">I</span>n many ancient societies</span>, the Phoenix was a symbol of strength and rebirth.</p>
<p><span><span>I</span>t lived</span> for hundreds of years at a time. When it started to feel weak, it would arrange a stake for itself and burst into flames.</p>
<p><span><span>A</span>fter being consumed</span> by the fire, the Phoenix rose from [...]
<p><span><span>Y</span>ou </span><i><span>think </span></i><span>you’re a “professional</span>,” a working stiff, a failure, destined for mediocrity, or one of the endless labels we attach ourselves to.</p>
[...]
<p><b class="vellum"><span><span>I</span> Won’t Operate</span> in Should or Must</b> <span><span>P</span>erception is powerful</span>. Even though our individual perceptions <i class="calibre7">seem </i>like reality, they’re not. They’re just our own versions of what’s real.</p>

with a bunch of hideous CSS (that would definitely break/not work in many readers):

Spoiler:

[...]
.connect-block {
    display: block;
    margin-top: 1em;
    text-align: center
    }
.connect-item {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    display: block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    height: 1.75em;
    hyphens: auto;
    text-align: justify;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0 0 0.25em
    }
.connect-item1 {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    display: block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    hyphens: auto;
    text-align: center;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0 0 0.25em
    }
.connect-oldschool-block {
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 0;
    margin-top: 0.5em
    }
.content-external-link {
    color: rgb(93, 31, 52);
    text-decoration: underline
    }
.created-with-vellum {
    display: block;
    padding-top: 0.5em
    }
.created-with-vellum-image {
    height: 1em;
    width: auto
    }
.created-with-vellum-image-container {
    display: inline-block;
    float: left;
    height: 1em;
    margin-top: 0.05em;
    padding-right: 0.25em
    }
.element {
    display: block;
    margin-left: 8%;
    margin-right: 8%;
    text-align: center
    }
.element-number {
    display: inline-block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    min-width: 1.5em;
    padding-left: 0;
    text-indent: 0
    }
.element-number-block {
    display: block;
    min-height: 2em
    }
.element-number1 {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: inline-block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    font-weight: bold;
    hyphens: manual;
    min-width: 4em;
    padding-bottom: 0.4em;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    margin: 0;
    border-bottom: rgb(111, 46, 46) solid 1px
    }
.element-title {
    -webkit-hyphens: none;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    hyphens: none;
    padding-left: 1.5em;
    text-align: left;
    text-indent: -1.5em;
    margin: 0
    }
.element1 {
    display: block;
    margin-top: 80px
    }
.element2 {
    display: block;
    margin-top: 10em
    }
.first {
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    hyphens: manual;
    text-align: left;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0.75em 0 0
    }
.first-letter {
    -webkit-line-box-contain: block inline replaced;
    float: left;
    font-family: Baskerville, "Sorts Mill Goudy", Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 500%;
    font-style: normal;
    font-weight: normal;
    line-height: 120%;
    margin-bottom: -0.31em;
    margin-right: 0.1em;
    margin-top: -0.35em;
    text-decoration: none;
    text-transform: uppercase
    }
.first-letter1 {
    -webkit-line-box-contain: block inline replaced;
    float: left;
    font-family: Baskerville, "Sorts Mill Goudy", Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 500%;
    font-style: normal;
    font-weight: normal;
    line-height: 120%;
    margin-bottom: -0.31em;
    margin-right: 0.09em;
    margin-top: -0.35em;
    text-decoration: none;
    text-transform: uppercase
    }
.first-letter2 {
    -webkit-line-box-contain: block inline replaced;
    float: left;
    font-family: Baskerville, "Sorts Mill Goudy", Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 500%;
    font-style: normal;
    font-weight: normal;
    line-height: 120%;
    margin-bottom: -0.31em;
    margin-right: 0.05em;
    margin-top: -0.35em;
    text-decoration: none;
    text-transform: uppercase
    }
.first-letter3 {
    -webkit-line-box-contain: block inline replaced;
    float: left;
    font-family: Baskerville, "Sorts Mill Goudy", Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 500%;
    font-style: normal;
    font-weight: normal;
    line-height: 120%;
    margin-bottom: -0.31em;
    margin-right: 0.08em;
    margin-top: -0.35em;
    text-decoration: none;
    text-transform: uppercase
    }
.first1 {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    display: block;
    font-style: italic;
    hyphens: auto;
    text-align: center;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0
    }
.first2 {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    display: block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    hyphens: auto;
    text-align: justify;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0
    }
.heading {
    min-height: 10.5em;
    text-align: center;
    margin: 60px 6% 2em
    }
.heading1 {
    min-height: 6em;
    text-align: center;
    margin: 64px 6% 2em
    }
.implicit-break {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    clear: both;
    display: block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    height: 1.4em;
    hyphens: auto;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: justify;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0 0 1.4em
    }
.inline-image {
    clear: both;
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 1.5em;
    margin-top: 1.5em;
    text-align: center;
    width: 100%
    }
.inline-image-container {
    display: block;
    margin-left: 32.5%;
    margin-right: 32.5%;
    width: 35%
    }
.social-icon-image {
    background-color: rgb(147, 147, 147);
    border-bottom-left-radius: 1em;
    border-bottom-right-radius: 1em;
    border-top-left-radius: 1em;
    border-top-right-radius: 1em;
    height: 1.75em;
    margin-bottom: -0.5em;
    margin-right: 0.2em;
    width: 1.75em
    }
.social-link-block {
    display: inline-block;
    margin-bottom: 0;
    margin-top: 0.4em;
    text-align: left
    }
.subsq {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    display: block;
    hyphens: auto;
    text-align: justify;
    text-indent: 1.5em;
    margin: 0
    }
.title {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1em;
    font-weight: bold;
    hyphens: manual;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    text-transform: uppercase;
    margin: 0.1em 0 0
    }
.title-page-contributor {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1.125em;
    font-weight: normal;
    hyphens: manual;
    line-height: 1.2;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    margin: 0 0 0.5em
    }
.title-page-contributor-block {
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 1.5em;
    min-height: 80px
    }
.title-page-contributor-name {
    letter-spacing: 0.05em;
    line-height: 1.2;
    text-transform: uppercase
    }
.title-page-contributor-primary-block {
    display: block
    }
.title-page-subtitle {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1em;
    font-weight: normal;
    hyphens: manual;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    text-transform: uppercase;
    margin: 1.5em 0 0
    }
.title-page-title {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    border-left-color: rgb(111, 46, 46);
    border-left-width: 1px;
    border-right-color: rgb(111, 46, 46);
    border-right-width: 1px;
    border-top-color: rgb(111, 46, 46);
    border-top-width: 1px;
    display: inline-block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1.41667em;
    font-weight: bold;
    hyphens: manual;
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    padding-bottom: 0.4em;
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    text-align: center;
    text-transform: uppercase;
    margin: 0;
    border-bottom: rgb(111, 46, 46) solid 1px
    }
.title-page-title-subtitle-block {
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 2em;
    margin-top: 140px;
    min-height: 140px
    }
.title-subtitle-block {
    display: block;
    margin-left: auto;
    margin-right: auto;
    min-height: 2em;
    padding-top: 3em;
    width: intrinsic
    }
.title-subtitle-block1 {
    display: block;
    min-height: 0;
    width: intrinsic;
    padding: 0;
    margin: 0 auto
    }
.title1 {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1em;
    font-weight: bold;
    hyphens: manual;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    text-transform: uppercase;
    margin: 0.1em 0 0
    }
.toc-backmatter-group {
    display: block;
    margin-top: 0.5em
    }
.toc-frontmatter-group {
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 0.5em
    }
.toc-title {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    border-left-color: rgb(117, 117, 117);
    border-left-width: 1px;
    border-right-color: rgb(117, 117, 117);
    border-right-width: 1px;
    border-top-color: rgb(117, 117, 117);
    border-top-width: 1px;
    display: block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1em;
    font-weight: bold;
    hyphens: manual;
    padding-bottom: 0.7em;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    text-transform: uppercase;
    margin: 0.5em 0 16px;
    border-bottom: rgb(117, 117, 117) solid 1px
    }
.underline {
    text-decoration: underline
    }
.vellum {
    font-weight: bold
    }

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

For a book club I'm in, I recently got an ebook that was formatted in the "amazing" Vellum. The code looks... not great:

Spoiler:

<body id="5N3C0-abc04c2609aa446198d6cd8a412fa940">
<div id="chapter-001" class="title-page-contributor-primary-block"><header class="heading" id="chapter-001-heading">
<div class="title-subtitle-block">
<div class="element-number-block"><h2 class="element-number1">1</h2>
</div>
<div class="title-page-contributor-primary-block">
<h3 class="title1">The Power of Reinvention</h3>
</div>
</div>

</header>
<div class="title-page-contributor-primary-block" id="chapter-001-text">
<p class="first"><span><span class="first-letter1">I</span>n many ancient societies</span>, the Phoenix was a symbol of strength and rebirth.</p>
<p><span><span>I</span>t lived</span> for hundreds of years at a time. When it started to feel weak, it would arrange a stake for itself and burst into flames.</p>
<p><span><span>A</span>fter being consumed</span> by the fire, the Phoenix rose from [...]
<p><span><span>Y</span>ou </span><i><span>think </span></i><span>you’re a “professional</span>,” a working stiff, a failure, destined for mediocrity, or one of the endless labels we attach ourselves to.</p>
[...]
<p><b class="vellum"><span><span>I</span> Won’t Operate</span> in Should or Must</b> <span><span>P</span>erception is powerful</span>. Even though our individual perceptions <i class="calibre7">seem </i>like reality, they’re not. They’re just our own versions of what’s real.</p>

with a bunch of hideous CSS (that would definitely break/not work in many readers):

Spoiler:

[...]
.connect-block {
    display: block;
    margin-top: 1em;
    text-align: center
    }
.connect-item {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    display: block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    height: 1.75em;
    hyphens: auto;
    text-align: justify;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0 0 0.25em
    }
.connect-item1 {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    display: block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    hyphens: auto;
    text-align: center;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0 0 0.25em
    }
.connect-oldschool-block {
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 0;
    margin-top: 0.5em
    }
.content-external-link {
    color: rgb(93, 31, 52);
    text-decoration: underline
    }
.created-with-vellum {
    display: block;
    padding-top: 0.5em
    }
.created-with-vellum-image {
    height: 1em;
    width: auto
    }
.created-with-vellum-image-container {
    display: inline-block;
    float: left;
    height: 1em;
    margin-top: 0.05em;
    padding-right: 0.25em
    }
.element {
    display: block;
    margin-left: 8%;
    margin-right: 8%;
    text-align: center
    }
.element-number {
    display: inline-block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    min-width: 1.5em;
    padding-left: 0;
    text-indent: 0
    }
.element-number-block {
    display: block;
    min-height: 2em
    }
.element-number1 {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: inline-block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    font-weight: bold;
    hyphens: manual;
    min-width: 4em;
    padding-bottom: 0.4em;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    margin: 0;
    border-bottom: rgb(111, 46, 46) solid 1px
    }
.element-title {
    -webkit-hyphens: none;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    hyphens: none;
    padding-left: 1.5em;
    text-align: left;
    text-indent: -1.5em;
    margin: 0
    }
.element1 {
    display: block;
    margin-top: 80px
    }
.element2 {
    display: block;
    margin-top: 10em
    }
.first {
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    hyphens: manual;
    text-align: left;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0.75em 0 0
    }
.first-letter {
    -webkit-line-box-contain: block inline replaced;
    float: left;
    font-family: Baskerville, "Sorts Mill Goudy", Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 500%;
    font-style: normal;
    font-weight: normal;
    line-height: 120%;
    margin-bottom: -0.31em;
    margin-right: 0.1em;
    margin-top: -0.35em;
    text-decoration: none;
    text-transform: uppercase
    }
.first-letter1 {
    -webkit-line-box-contain: block inline replaced;
    float: left;
    font-family: Baskerville, "Sorts Mill Goudy", Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 500%;
    font-style: normal;
    font-weight: normal;
    line-height: 120%;
    margin-bottom: -0.31em;
    margin-right: 0.09em;
    margin-top: -0.35em;
    text-decoration: none;
    text-transform: uppercase
    }
.first-letter2 {
    -webkit-line-box-contain: block inline replaced;
    float: left;
    font-family: Baskerville, "Sorts Mill Goudy", Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 500%;
    font-style: normal;
    font-weight: normal;
    line-height: 120%;
    margin-bottom: -0.31em;
    margin-right: 0.05em;
    margin-top: -0.35em;
    text-decoration: none;
    text-transform: uppercase
    }
.first-letter3 {
    -webkit-line-box-contain: block inline replaced;
    float: left;
    font-family: Baskerville, "Sorts Mill Goudy", Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 500%;
    font-style: normal;
    font-weight: normal;
    line-height: 120%;
    margin-bottom: -0.31em;
    margin-right: 0.08em;
    margin-top: -0.35em;
    text-decoration: none;
    text-transform: uppercase
    }
.first1 {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    display: block;
    font-style: italic;
    hyphens: auto;
    text-align: center;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0
    }
.first2 {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    display: block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    hyphens: auto;
    text-align: justify;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0
    }
.heading {
    min-height: 10.5em;
    text-align: center;
    margin: 60px 6% 2em
    }
.heading1 {
    min-height: 6em;
    text-align: center;
    margin: 64px 6% 2em
    }
.implicit-break {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    clear: both;
    display: block;
    font-size: 0.75em;
    height: 1.4em;
    hyphens: auto;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: justify;
    text-indent: 0;
    margin: 0 0 1.4em
    }
.inline-image {
    clear: both;
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 1.5em;
    margin-top: 1.5em;
    text-align: center;
    width: 100%
    }
.inline-image-container {
    display: block;
    margin-left: 32.5%;
    margin-right: 32.5%;
    width: 35%
    }
.social-icon-image {
    background-color: rgb(147, 147, 147);
    border-bottom-left-radius: 1em;
    border-bottom-right-radius: 1em;
    border-top-left-radius: 1em;
    border-top-right-radius: 1em;
    height: 1.75em;
    margin-bottom: -0.5em;
    margin-right: 0.2em;
    width: 1.75em
    }
.social-link-block {
    display: inline-block;
    margin-bottom: 0;
    margin-top: 0.4em;
    text-align: left
    }
.subsq {
    -webkit-hyphens: auto;
    adobe-hyphenate: auto;
    display: block;
    hyphens: auto;
    text-align: justify;
    text-indent: 1.5em;
    margin: 0
    }
.title {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1em;
    font-weight: bold;
    hyphens: manual;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    text-transform: uppercase;
    margin: 0.1em 0 0
    }
.title-page-contributor {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1.125em;
    font-weight: normal;
    hyphens: manual;
    line-height: 1.2;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    margin: 0 0 0.5em
    }
.title-page-contributor-block {
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 1.5em;
    min-height: 80px
    }
.title-page-contributor-name {
    letter-spacing: 0.05em;
    line-height: 1.2;
    text-transform: uppercase
    }
.title-page-contributor-primary-block {
    display: block
    }
.title-page-subtitle {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1em;
    font-weight: normal;
    hyphens: manual;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    text-transform: uppercase;
    margin: 1.5em 0 0
    }
.title-page-title {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    border-left-color: rgb(111, 46, 46);
    border-left-width: 1px;
    border-right-color: rgb(111, 46, 46);
    border-right-width: 1px;
    border-top-color: rgb(111, 46, 46);
    border-top-width: 1px;
    display: inline-block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1.41667em;
    font-weight: bold;
    hyphens: manual;
    letter-spacing: 0.03em;
    line-height: 1.4em;
    padding-bottom: 0.4em;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    text-transform: uppercase;
    margin: 0;
    border-bottom: rgb(111, 46, 46) solid 1px
    }
.title-page-title-subtitle-block {
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 2em;
    margin-top: 140px;
    min-height: 140px
    }
.title-subtitle-block {
    display: block;
    margin-left: auto;
    margin-right: auto;
    min-height: 2em;
    padding-top: 3em;
    width: intrinsic
    }
.title-subtitle-block1 {
    display: block;
    min-height: 0;
    width: intrinsic;
    padding: 0;
    margin: 0 auto
    }
.title1 {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    display: block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1em;
    font-weight: bold;
    hyphens: manual;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    text-transform: uppercase;
    margin: 0.1em 0 0
    }
.toc-backmatter-group {
    display: block;
    margin-top: 0.5em
    }
.toc-frontmatter-group {
    display: block;
    margin-bottom: 0.5em
    }
.toc-title {
    -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
    -webkit-hyphens: manual;
    adobe-hyphenate: none;
    border-left-color: rgb(117, 117, 117);
    border-left-width: 1px;
    border-right-color: rgb(117, 117, 117);
    border-right-width: 1px;
    border-top-color: rgb(117, 117, 117);
    border-top-width: 1px;
    display: block;
    font-family: Palatino, Malabar, serif;
    font-size: 1em;
    font-weight: bold;
    hyphens: manual;
    padding-bottom: 0.7em;
    page-break-after: avoid;
    page-break-inside: avoid;
    text-align: center;
    text-transform: uppercase;
    margin: 0.5em 0 16px;
    border-bottom: rgb(117, 117, 117) solid 1px
    }
.underline {
    text-decoration: underline
    }
.vellum {
    font-weight: bold
    }

That is some really nasty code. Why bother to use a program to help create your eBook when you'll only need to redo it all by hand and it will be much more difficult to fix this mess then to do it all by hand.

For the average novel, HTML/CSS is very easy to learn. We have Calibre and Sigil that will let you create your eBook as long as you know enough HTML/CSS. I learned a lot from diving into eBook code. It started with Book designer and then ePub using Notepad++. Then I moved to Sigil. Now it's mostly Calibre with sometimes Sigil. I probably would still be using Sigil mostly if it wasn't for book view. I found it annoying to have to keep switching between book view and code view. Calibre I didn't need to do that. So I just got to using it more and more.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That is some really nasty code. Why bother to use a program to help create your eBook when you'll only need to redo it all by hand and it will be much more difficult to fix this mess then to do it all by hand.

It's "so easy"... It looks "perfect"... or so I constantly hear parroted on Reddit and everywhere else that overly-priced program gets brought up.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

For the average novel, HTML/CSS is very easy to learn.

Styles are really easy to learn too, <30 minutes. And uses programs you already use!

But nah, I'd rather pay $300 (and rent a Mac for $1+ per hour) to convert it for me.

Anyway, this is going way off tangent from what the thread's supposed to be about:

KPF and how awful proprietary formats are.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

• Kindle in Motion
  • Remember that failure? 28 books total.

Going off on a tangent to your tangent...

Amazon really missed the boat on that one. They put a lot of development effort into that and then just dropped it. The "motion" part seemed like a gimmick to me, but there were a lot of other nice features in the Illustrated Layout that underlies Kindle in Motion. They could have made those available to publishers for more normal books.

Amazon currently has a clunky children's book format that allows fixed layout pages with images and text that allows the text to be magnified to a more readable size. However the font and original/magnified sizes are set by the publisher. Illustrated Layout allowed mixing reflowable text with images in a way that allowed wrapping around arbitrary shapes with user selected fonts and sizes. It would repeat the image on multiple consecutive screens if the user selected a large readable font size that could not fit on a single page.

Other features of that format gave the publisher control over page headers and footers and allowed images to go beyond the normal page margins.

It's too bad that they just threw away all of that work. My guess is that there was internal infighting and the Kindle in Motion group lost.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

"If I tell you, I'd have to kill you."

Great sidestepping, masterful work!

Hey, I answered the question asked. The formatting. Ain't nuttin' speshul there. Answered, voila.

Hitch

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Amazon really missed the boat on that one. They put a lot of development effort into that and then just dropped it.

[...]

It's too bad that they just threw away all of that work. My guess is that there was internal infighting and the Kindle in Motion group lost.

I think similar to a lot of these HTML5 <audio> + <video> gimmicks, I think the stats proved they just don't sell. Actual real life readers just don't care about a lot of that crap.

The Digital Reader is always writing articles about yet-another-publisher coming out with "the next big thing since sliced bread":

• INTERACTIVE EBOOKS
• Playing train noises while you're reading The Orient Express!

and then a year later... yet another article on how that company went under... only for a new one to pop up trying the same exact thing, repeating the same exact talking points!

Side Note: Although what Amazon IS doing right:

Don't they sync the audiobook versions along with the Kindle versions? So if you purchase both, you can follow along?

Also, Amazon's Auto-generated Captions for audiobooks (oh boy, what an idiotic court case that was!). (Android 10 is bringing auto-generated captions built into the OS soon... Watch out Google, the copyright maximalists are coming for you next!)

Originally Posted by jhowell

The "motion" part seemed like a gimmick to me, but there were a lot of other nice features in the Illustrated Layout that underlies Kindle in Motion.

[...]

Illustrated Layout allowed mixing reflowable text with images in a way that allowed wrapping around arbitrary shapes with user selected fonts and sizes.

So like a "Hybrid Fixed Layout". Now the way you're explaining it sounds a bit better. :P

Wonder how it was actually coded inside.

Side Note: What's also just frustrating to me is MathML (as you've stated again in the Kindle Publishing Guidelines thread).

Does anyone know of an actual book for sale that actually has MathML in it yet?

Side Note #2: (And I forget, can big publishers actually have access to this?) ONE thing that would be helpful for some self-publishers is limiting certain ebooks to ONLY be read on specific Kindles (or KF8 or higher).

I love the fantastic backwards compatible support Amazon does, but there are just some ebooks that are not possible to be read on KF7... heavy math is one of them.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

So like a "Hybrid Fixed Layout". Now the way you're explaining it sounds a bit better. :P

Wonder how it was actually coded inside.

Amazon invented their own undocumented, non-standard markup for the features of Illustrated Layout.

The ability to wrap text around arbitrary shapes used a property called -amzn-shape-outside. This defines the border of an image as a polygon instead of a rectangle. Like this.

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Side Note: What's also just frustrating to me is MathML (as you've stated again in the Kindle Publishing Guidelines thread).

Does anyone know of an actual book for sale that actually has MathML in it yet?

I don't know of any. I would like to have a look at one.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Amazon invented their own non-standard markup for the features of Illustrated Layout.

The ability to wrap text around arbitrary shapes used a property called -amzn-shape-outside. This defines the border of an image as a polygon instead of a rectangle.

I'm gonna say it--I liked KIM. Not for the obvious reasons. I thought it was going to be a waste of time, but you know, the Harry Potter that I bought to see how it worked was actually pretty cool. In some ways, it combined the best features of an eBook+a real illustrated kids' book.

I'm the one, (after Wolfie) always kvetching that books should be books, not some klugey chimera, but...I liked them. I'm sorry that they abandoned it.

I don't know of any. I would like to have a look at one.

As Tex2002ans would tell you, ME TOO. We're working together (to be honest, he's doing all the work part) on a book right now that badly, badly needs it. (sigh).

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

I think similar to a lot of these HTML5 <audio> + <video> gimmicks, I think the stats proved they just don't sell. Actual real life readers just don't care about a lot of that crap.

The Digital Reader is always writing articles about yet-another-publisher coming out with "the next big thing since sliced bread":

• INTERACTIVE EBOOKS
• Playing train noises while you're reading The Orient Express!

and then a year later... yet another article on how that company went under... only for a new one to pop up trying the same exact thing, repeating the same exact talking points!

Side Note: Although what Amazon IS doing right:

Don't they sync the audiobook versions along with the Kindle versions? So if you purchase both, you can follow along?

Also, Amazon's Auto-generated Captions for audiobooks (oh boy, what an idiotic court case that was!). (Android 10 is bringing auto-generated captions built into the OS soon... Watch out Google, the copyright maximalists are coming for you next!)



So like a "Hybrid Fixed Layout". Now the way you're explaining it sounds a bit better. :P

Wonder how it was actually coded inside.

Side Note: What's also just frustrating to me is MathML (as you've stated again in the Kindle Publishing Guidelines thread).

Does anyone know of an actual book for sale that actually has MathML in it yet?

Side Note #2: (And I forget, can big publishers actually have access to this?) ONE thing that would be helpful for some self-publishers is limiting certain ebooks to ONLY be read on specific Kindles (or KF8 or higher).

I love the fantastic backwards compatible support Amazon does, but there are just some ebooks that are not possible to be read on KF7... heavy math is one of them.

The way I see it is if you want to do interactive books with audio and video, do so as an app. That would works so much better and be able to be written for the platforms in which they will work. Write an app for iOS and Android and they will work. Write them as eBooks and they may or may not work.

If you want math to show correctly, use SVG. It's got more support then MathML. I can read an ePub in ADE 2.0.1 that uses SVG. You can read KF8 that has math in SVG. I remember back when ADE was at 1.7.2. Someone created an ePub with complex math that used SVG and it resided when you change the font size. It looked like a magazine article.