Marvin 3.0

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Apocalypto

Paid updates would be great, but it's not a model the App Store currently supports. I can't speak for Kris but I imagine if the subscription expires it'd just go back to showing the ads.


It's not worth $5/yr for something you say you use everyday? I know we all like free things but if we want a healthy Marvin then we need to make it worth Kris's time to continue development. Prior to the 3.0 announcement people assumed it was abandoned, do we really want to go there again? Ideally Kris would earn enough he could make this a career but if there were 5,000 people who paid $5 a year that'd be only 17.5k the first year and 21.25k in subsequent years (on which Kris then has to pay taxes). And that gets divided not just by hours spent developing the app but all the support he has to do.

I oppose to subscribing for software on basic principle. I buy software, I don't rent it. There are a lot of software companies that like the idea of a constant revenue stream. I doubt you will find very many customers who like it though.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by Apocalypto

Paid updates would be great, but it's not a model the App Store currently supports. I can't speak for Kris but I imagine if the subscription expires it'd just go back to showing the ads.


It's not worth $5/yr for something you say you use everyday? I know we all like free things but if we want a healthy Marvin then we need to make it worth Kris's time to continue development. Prior to the 3.0 announcement people assumed it was abandoned, do we really want to go there again? Ideally Kris would earn enough he could make this a career but if there were 5,000 people who paid $5 a year that'd be only 17.5k the first year and 21.25k in subsequent years (on which Kris then has to pay taxes). And that gets divided not just by hours spent developing the app but all the support he has to do.

You didn't understand my point.

I'm an avid supporter of Marvin...but no, I don't like subscriptions for software. I would gladly pay $50 for Marvin 3....and another $50 for Marvin 3.1...but I don't want to lose my ability to use a software I paid for...

I need to control my own cash flow. If a higher priority expense comes along, I need to be able to prioritize my payments without the threat of losing the use of my software.

[democrite]

Originally Posted by kguil

@democrite M3 will support dictionaries (even web-based ones) in popups. I'm also looking into the "panel" dictionary. Also, in M3, there will be a special OPDS auto detect mode to find calibre servers on your local network.

Cool. Still hope someday Marvin could be the first to offer better OPDS support. Since I download books quite often, caching personal servers, and being able to search with a library search showing a tab for opds, that'd be tremendously helpful.

not sure if this has ever been brought up. If the viewing options haven't been refined yet, there's one particular thing. I've noticed some books use colors, like foreign language learning works that use bold/color to distinguish language, or some works that might have a special font for headers, it'd be nice if the default non-publisher view settings kept those. Perhaps allowing color changes for a default p/div and any other styles that use the same color, while leaving other colors and perhaps fonts alone.

don't know if Dropbox book syncing has been suggested before; that'd be great too.

btw still quite interested in beta testing.

[TicklishOwl]

Originally Posted by Apocalypto

It's not worth $5/yr for something you say you use everyday? I know we all like free things but if we want a healthy Marvin then we need to make it worth Kris's time to continue development.

Agreed, I think most people don't realize the time and effort required to develop and support an app. Free is great, but I want to support devs (and authors, musicians) so they can keep making cool stuff.

In the past I preferred a single IAP. But, apps like Overcast Podcast Player, Weather Underground and WU's Storm Radar have changed my mind.

Overcast is free without restrictions and there are no ads. Optional patronage subscription via IAP is there to support the dev. I tried the app for a few weeks, then made an IAP. I will continue to do so.

Weather Underground and Storm both serve ads which can be removed with a $1.99/year subscription. You can use the same subscription for both apps, which is beyond generous for the price. Again, I have no regrets supporting WU.

I'm not certain if Apple would allow this, but... I think a single IAP to remove ads with optional patronage tiers (like Overcast's) would be fantastic. That way I can continue to support Marvin's dev, even after the IAP to remove ads, which benefits everyone.

[Chaotic]

I haven’t been a member on MobileRead for long (and haven’t even introduced myself yet, so hi everyone?) but I love reading and Marvin (along with Calibre now that I’ve started using it) is pretty much the Holy Grail of e-reader apps as far as I’m concerned, which is why I was (and still am) pretty much over the freaking moon when I heard of the news of Marvin 3.0.

And before I jump into the money discussion, I just want to say this, I just want to congratulate anyone involved in developing Marvin (whether the current version or the upcoming one) and thank them for the truly upstanding work. I have been using it since 2014 and it’s probably my favorite app. If I had to get rid of everything on my iPad but one app? The one I’d keep would be Marvin, no contest. The fact that it is one of the 5 apps in my iPad dock at the bottom of the screen—and the one in the center at that—is probably telling enough on its own, but I thought the Marvin developer(s) might like to know how much their baby is appreciated.

Now, for the heavy stuff, on the whole paying for apps "debate"... I don’t necessarily think someone being against (or reluctant to adhere to) a subscription model can be easily simplified as “people want free stuff and don’t want to pay for things developers worked hard for”, not at all. I mean, I can’t talk for everyone, obviously, so maybe some do feel that way. But I think we’re also just not thinking about the people who are indeed willing to pay, but just don’t like subscriptions.

I, for one, paid for the full version of Marvin 2 (and treated myself to the color themes as well) after like a few hours of using the free version, and I never regretted it. It’s probably the app I use the most and, though I don’t even remember how much I paid for it at the time, I definitely remember thinking I would have been willing to pay more for it because it was awesome. And after using it for months and months and months, I can safely say I was right to think that way. On the other hand, would I have bought it if it had been a subscription model? Probably not. Actually, definitely not. I would have been bummed about the whole thing and maybe even pissed at myself for it because after finding the perfect reading app for me, not having it would have sucked, but there you have it. I just would have missed out on the most awesome app ever, and not have even known it and a lot of other people probably would have as well.

And it’s not because I wouldn’t be willing to pay for it—again if I’d had to pay 50 bucks (or even more, let’s be honest, that’s how much I love this app), I would have and I would have been smiling while I did it, and if a year later, there had been a new version out (as I understand the Apple Store doesn’t allow for paying for upgrades) and I had to pay again for the new version? I would have done it gladly as well. And some people, probably think that’s silly, being willing to fork out 50 bucks or more and maybe another 50 or more the following year when I could maybe just be paying 2 bucks (or whatever the price) a month for the time I’m using it...but. But, I just don’t like subscriptions, that’s it.

Originally Posted by Turtle91

You didn't understand my point.

I'm an avid supporter of Marvin...but no, I don't like subscriptions for software. I would gladly pay $50 for Marvin 3....and another $50 for Marvin 3.1...but I don't want to lose my ability to use a software I paid for...

I need to control my own cash flow. If a higher priority expense comes along, I need to be able to prioritize my payments without the threat of losing the use of my software.

For one thing, Turtle91 said it well in their posts, for things like this (apps, softwares and such), I much prefer buying to renting, and I prefer paying a much higher price once and then know that if for one reason or another I’m having money troubles for a few months, I won’t have to worry about a ton of subscriptions that I have to cancel and then spend those months not being able to use said app or software. That would suck.

And another thing that probably only touches me because I seem to be the only person I know who doesn’t have one, but, the thing is I don’t use credit cards. Rectification: I don’t even have a credit card anymore because I just don’t manage my money well with them and so for a couple years now, I’ve been credit card free (and what do you know, I don’t wonder where my money went at the end of the month and I can actually save some, but that’s beside the point) and so, apart from regular monthly things (like rent and insurance and utilities and stuff) that are directly taken from my bank account, all the other stuff I need to buy during the month, I do it by going to my bank directly at the start of the month and withdrawing my money there in person, so I always know exactly how much I’m spending. (It can be annoying sometimes but it works for me.) But what this means is that for everything that I have to pay on the Internet, I’m stuck because I don’t have a credit card (which is also one reason I don’t have one anymore), so when I really need to, I use the credit card of a close relative (usually one of my siblings or parents) and give them the cash and there’s no problem. And that’s not too annoying because I don’t buy that many things virtually, so I usually end up having to do that just a few times a year, but it would be just inconvenient for me if I had monthly subscriptions on someone else’s card instead of the occasional purchases, not to mention that my siblings/parents would probably just tell me flat-out no for that, I wouldn’t blame them, my no-credit card thing is most likely already annoying enough for them. So, yeah, that probably only affects me (and like 2 or 3 other weirdos like me maybe) but subscriptions are just not a convenient option for me at all. ETA: Um, I just realized that for the App Store at least, I could use iTunes gift cards, that would probably be easier than using someone else's card as proxy. My others points haven't changed though, and gift card or not, one-time fees are still a lot more convenient for me than subscriptions.

And last but not least, I also think there are those (like me) who also don’t like subscription models for the simple fact that it makes them feel like some kind of never-ending cash flow. How can I explain it? Um. Ah, it’s a little like game apps on the App Store, for example. I, personally, much rather pay 40-50 bucks for a game on my 3DS and be done with it and able to enjoy it at will than pay nothing (or a measly 4 bucks, for instance) for a game on the App Store but then not be able to pretty much do anything or advance in the game or play more than 15 minutes at a time on said game unless I continuously pay up using the game currency via in-app purchases. But maybe that’s just me, I’m just giving my two cents here.

P.S: And with the freaking awesome features I’ve seen being announced? You should definitely make people pay accordingly for the hard work it took, no questions.

P.P.S: Um, just adding my thoughts here but, contrary to some comments I’ve seen on the matter, I’m of the opinion that the banner in the free version of Marvin 3 should definitely be annoying, because otherwise, unfortunately, the people who aren’t hardcore users/fans of Marvin like me and a lot of the people here, probably won’t bother paying the full price and that would be a shame. Or, I don’t know, maybe finding a way for people using the free version to test all the features but still be limited in some way... Maybe not as drastic as the one-book limit on Marvin 2 (though it probably worked like a charm, so), but something in that vein? I don’t know, I’m just throwing ideas here.

Annnnd... I’m done.

---

TL;DR: It’s not that I want things for free, not at all, I’ll gladly pay. It’s just how I pay and the subsequent limited use or not of the product that concerns me. Basically, as far as I’m concerned, I’d much rather have a high price once than a itty bitty one indefinitely.

[kguil]

@democrite: I like your other suggestions, so I'll keep them in mind when working on updates.

@everyone: Just to clarify - M3 will *not* be moving to a subscription model. The app is free to use with all features completely functional, plus a small in-app purchase to remove an in-book banner. I've also (partially) taken on board @Mr. Goodbar's suggestion to remove the banner for a short period of time to get an even better idea what it would be like without it (although it certainly won't be 12 days).

[kguil]

@Chaotic - thank you for your kind words.

[vs40]

Ok! A lot of discussions about purchase method...
Just give us a final release, so we can pay for that!

[kyteflyer]

Originally Posted by vs40

Ok! A lot of discussions about purchase method...
Just give us a final release, so we can pay for that!

Oh yes please

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by atjnjk

In my opinion, a good ebook reader's first priority is to improve speed, stability and legibility. I hope M3 will open books (with large sections, lots of pictures) faster than M2. Multimedia annotation is a plus but not necessary.

For you... For me, audio (if not hand-drawn/video) annotations are a necessity. Since Marvin doesn't have them, I'm forced to use an array of other apps/software services to get around the limitation. So my workflow currently is:

• open Marvin's annotation window
• minimize Marvin and launch the fabulous DropVox app (sits in my iOS dock just like Marvin) to speak your annotation
• DropVox automatically sends the MP3 recording to Dropbox
• an IFTTT channel/recipe notices the new recording in Dropbox, and submits the link to listen to it as a new entry in the Day One journaling app (but not instantly, unless you prompt IFTTT manually in the IFTTT app – otherwise, it can take up to 15 minutes)
• I open the Day One journaling app and copy the link to the MP3 annotation from there to Marvin's annotation window, storing it there.

Quite a runaround, eh? I would really appreciate if Marvin eased this workflow for me one day.

As to "improving speed, stability and legibility", I'd call Marvin rock-solid in those regards. Yes, there may be an occasional crash here or there, but for me, those would not be priorities.

As can be seen, every user's mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by atjnjk

What I miss in Marvin is the ability to import/export individual book with its metadata and annotations, e.g., a zip including the book file and metadata files. That would make it easier to archive in pc (I'm a Calibre fan) and/or share with others.

Yes, that would be a great feature.

Originally Posted by democrite

not sure if this has ever been brought up. If the viewing options haven't been refined yet, there's one particular thing. I've noticed some books use colors, like foreign language learning works that use bold/color to distinguish language, or some works that might have a special font for headers, it'd be nice if the default non-publisher view settings kept those. Perhaps allowing color changes for a default p/div and any other styles that use the same color, while leaving other colors and perhaps fonts alone.

Marvin's (mis)treatment of original font colors has been a Marvin weakness from the start. I've been trying to alert Kris to this weakness in Marvin for years now, but with no success so far. Here is a thread on this issue I started in GitHub back in 2013:

https://github.com/kguil/Marvin-Roadmap/issues/99

[democrite]

Originally Posted by kguil

@democrite: I like your other suggestions, so I'll keep them in mind when working on updates.

terrific.

Originally Posted by kguil

… a small in-app purchase to remove an in-book banner. I've also (partially) taken on board @Mr. Goodbar's suggestion to remove the banner for a short period of time to get an even better idea what it would be like without it (although it certainly won't be 12 days).

I was thinking the banner might not be the most elegant. Similar to other apps, perhaps a library limit like 3, and then the IAP to remove it. It could be less intrusive than a banner, though also less functional, and who knows if one or the other would better encourage trial and purchase. An option.

btw, still believe the toolbar auto-hide on various screens, plus the toolbar obscuring text since the margins are a bit small, that option doesn't seem great as default, or perhaps to have even at all. Not sure if that's changing in 3.0. On iPad, default margins to allow the toolbar to always show are ok, though on iPhone that makes text on one screen a bit limited. Still I think, like with iBooks, that's the most usable. One option might be a swipe to show TOC/notes/bookmarks panel, though that in place of a toolbar, or having both, don't know if that is great.

other misc things

- 2.0 ignores linear="no". Often used to hide cover and make title page first.

- perhaps less used options like font (that I set only once), brightness, deep view, remind me, etc, can be moved to a dropdown (on iPhone) so there's only a top toolbar, and on the bottom, the scroller (like iBooks).

- I've sometimes before complained, perhaps not so nicely, about misc UI animations, status updates, prompts, etc that I feel aren't too necessary and maybe make the app appear a bit cluttered. Not sure how 3.0 will look though I'd imagine it's already better. Perhaps with 2.0, there was a bit too much adoption of feedback by adding features without stepping back to considering the entire UI and if each idea is really needed, might clutter, or complicate general usage. There was a bit of feature creep and beginning signs of being a mess like MS Office. Hope the time to plan 3.0 has helped and hoping for the best.

[kguil]

@vs40, @kyteflyer - a couple of tiny issues cropped up mid this week and I wanted to get them fixed before a public release. I'm hoping to ship next week.

@democrite - I suppose we can both agree that both an in-book banner, and a limited size library make *any* ebook reader unsuitable for long term use (although I myself find the banner less irritating). The difference is that with a limited size library, there are many features that people cannot try. For instance, collections, sorting, searching, recent books, and pretty much all library management functions. With a banner, they can try every single thing that Marvin can do without restrictions. All in all, I think the banner gives readers a "preview" of what the app can do. Put another way, it is possible to manage and read any kind of library with the banner, but it is impossible with an artificial limit on the number of books you can load.

Also, Marvin 2's free version worked exactly like that - a limited size library, and it was a consistent source of complaints. In version 3, I'm trying to address that.

[kguil]

@atjnjk - I'm adding an "Export book to bundle" (annotations, notes, metadata, etc...) feature to my to do list. I like the idea so I'll prioritise it.

[democrite]

@kguil understand and agree the banner w/o a library limit sounds right.

Another thing I mentioned once: fonts. Not sure if the long list in 2.0 makes for user choice or a complicated UI. But that's less important. Wanted to mention there weren't many with good Unicode coverage. DejaVu and Gentium Plus are the only free ones from what I remember that have been decent. I'll sideload something else with 3.0 but including them, others may like.

[randyman]

Wow – I haven’t logged in here since May of 2010!

But I had to stop in and say how excited I am about Marvin 3.0. I just learned about it after stopping by appstafarian.com to make a small feature request – one that it certainly looks like Kris has covered in the extensive new feature list. What an embarrassment of riches!

I really don’t have much to add to the discussion, other than to say I’m looking forward to paying for the upgrade. Marvin has been my dream e-reader since I found it, and I’m drooling over the features to come. Can’t wait!