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#61 |
Snoozing in the sun
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#62 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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#63 | |
cacoethes scribendi
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As to what happens after June 1924, I'm still reading that part. Part one gets through to Aug 1925 to when the strongest evidence - to date - of cause and effect seems to have been finally discovered. But again it is necessary to remember that just because Moore is only listing girls that fell ill (and as we walk into the building with one of our victims everyone she sees has a limp or a lump) does not mean they were the only girls that worked there: it was not simple case of dial-paint-work=illness, so convincing vested interests (once the evidence started to emerge) was always going to be difficult. The problem we face is that Moore has left most of the facts and figures out of her story, making it very difficult to gain a meaningful perspective. The only choice that Moore is giving us is an emotional response, and that's not particularly helpful in understanding what actually happened. |
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#64 | |
Professor of Law
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There actually does have to be fault, legally. Without some sort of breach of duty to the women (i.e. legal fault), they were not entitled to any legal damages. Now, of course, the human brain cries out "but it was the decent thing to do!" But up until the point when they had a good idea that it was, indeed, their fault, how far should that decency have extended? Until it bankrupted them? I think that this highlights a good point that others have made - that the book looks backwards knowing who's legal fault it was the whole time. But at what time those actors actually starting to willingly or negligently act with disregard to the safety of the workers is another matter. |
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#65 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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#66 | ||
cacoethes scribendi
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But in 1924 that started to change, and if Moore didn't exaggerate the Drinker's report then that would seem mark the place where USRC really knew there were problems they should be addressing - even if they still couldn't know the true nature or extent of the problem (because no one knew yet). |
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#67 |
Almost legible
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Then there is the anecdote about the founder, spotting a woman lip-pointing, telling her not to do that.
At this point, a person who actually cared about the welfare of their employees would have called a halt and investigated the practice, maybe held some training, set up some new rules. Instead, we see episodes of making CYA rules meant to be broken, and only when there might some threat of litigation or government intervention. However, I do agree that the author is placing blame through the eyes of hindsight: the amounts of radium used in the paints were miniscule, compared to the amounts being handled by the male scientists; it was possible that the problem was with the mesothorium and not radium itself (in fact, the evidence provided suggests that the jaw necrosis is a mesothorium-induced syndrome, whereas the sicknesses caused by the radium were mostly longer-term). And let us face it: in this modern day and age of "Fake News", "Flat Earths" and conspiracies around every corner, can we deny that there are people who will doggedly adhere to a belief even when there is an overwhelming pile of evidence proving otherwise? |
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#68 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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In any case, at the point that the companies did know, their response was inadequate, to say the least. |
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#69 | |
cacoethes scribendi
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The reason for offering any argument about the earlier situation is only that I wanted to understand it better, because that becomes the basis for the subsequent bad behaviour. This is history, we can't change it, but we should have been able to learn from it - although it seems quite obvious that we have not. To learn we need to understand what happened - on both sides - and I don't think this book is the right vehicle for that. (Which, for me, makes it something of a waste.) |
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#70 | |||
Wizard
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We seem to have forgotten many of the hard-learned lessons of the early industrial age. As we were discussing this book, I note two events over the past week - the announcement of the proposed rail bypass for Lac Megantic and the start today of the Grenfell Tower hearings. We learned a long time ago how to run a cargo train safely and how to construct and maintain a fire-proof high rise; there are well-established standards for these things, and we used to have organizations to enforce them. But now we seem to rely on profit-centered organizations to self-police. That didn't work well in the past. I fear that relearning that is going to be a very painful and costly process. I applaud the choice of this book; it was a great fit for the theme. |
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#71 | |
cacoethes scribendi
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For all that a confrontational legal system has many benefits, sometimes it really sucks! |
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#72 | |
o saeclum infacetum
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#73 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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Women's health often continues to be an afterthought. |
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#74 | |
Grand Sorcerer
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I absolutely do not see any moral equivalence between some powerless breadwinner choosing to stay silent so as not to jeopardize his job and his family, and a thriving company blithely continuing to endanger the health and well-being of its workers to maximize profits. No. |
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#75 | |
cacoethes scribendi
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![]() There is a regrettable tendency for people to see companies as things with no human side, that can stand there and part with money with no ill effects, or if there are ill effects they are seen as deserved - never quite acknowledging the fact that those effects have a real cost that someone has to pay. In this case the companies obviously had the resources that they could have helped these women, although at some point the insurance companies get involved and things get extra messy. In situations like this there is a real risk that a company might collapse - not necessarily because of what it pays out, but because of reputation loss and related factors. The impacts of this hits management, employees - the man I was speaking of might lose his job anyway - and shareholders (who are not necessarily rich people that can afford the loss). So the people that are acting to protect the corporation are not necessarily acting for evil or selfish purposes, many are attempting to do the best they can for the company because that best for the employees and customers and shareholders. None of this is arguing that the company should not be held responsible for their actions, but it is useful to keep in mind that there are real people behind the corporate mask that will pay the actual costs. |
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