Defective by Design is targeting the Kindle

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

So you are incorrect: people didn't go for that one.

Right: No one uses iTunes.

Originally Posted by rlauzon

You've already stepped outside of reality.

All of the devices I mentioned can read text formats, and therefore e-books. So my statement is perfectly true. (Obviously, that doesn't apply to Kindles, so for the purpose of this thread, I will limit my comments to the Kindle from here on out.)

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Misleading. Because of DRM used eBooks cannot exist. I have yet to see any DRMed eBooks going for less than a used paper book. Mostly they are more than the price of the hardcover edition.

Non-sequitor, since I didn't say anything about DRM. Used e-books have nothing to do with the cost of a new e-book. And there are e-books out there that cost less than printed books.

Originally Posted by rlauzon

No, they can't. That's the whole purpose of DRM.

So you buy e-books that don't use DRM. There are a few out there. You can even load them onto the Kindle.

[tsgreer]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

.....So you buy e-books that don't use DRM. There are a few out there. You can even load them onto the Kindle.

Actually lots of DRM-free books out there. One could have the Kindle or almost any ebook reader and not have one single DRM'd book on it. So I'm on your side Steve.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by tsgreer

Great way of putting it. I personally hate having to be tech-savvy to read a book. I am not being sarcastic. I do love the "like it-download it-read it" aspect of the Kindle.

That's obviously what Amazon was going for. If they ever figure out how to bring the Kindle's cost down, I think a lot more people will go for that, too.

[tsgreer]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

That's obviously what Amazon was going for. If they ever figure out how to bring the Kindle's cost down, I think a lot more people will go for that, too.

Agreed. The cost is pretty out there. But us early-adopters always have to pay more. Every journey begins with a first step. I do think the price will come down and once it does, us e-book people can finally stop being a niche market.

I hope.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Right: No one uses iTunes.

That's not what I said. Please read what I write.

Far fewer songs are downloaded from iTunes than you think.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

All of the devices I mentioned can read text formats, and therefore e-books. So my statement is perfectly true. (Obviously, that doesn't apply to Kindles, so for the purpose of this thread, I will limit my comments to the Kindle from here on out.)

And where, exactly, can one purchase a text eBook of a current NY Times best seller?

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Non-sequitor, since I didn't say anything about DRM. Used e-books have nothing to do with the cost of a new e-book. And there are e-books out there that cost less than printed books.

That is correct. But none of those cheap eBooks are "mainstream". All "mainstream" books that are available as eBooks have DRM.

If you are going to talk about the Kindle and eBooks, DRM is something that must be addressed.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

So you buy e-books that don't use DRM. There are a few out there. You can even load them onto the Kindle.

I do. And then I read them on a device that's much cheaper than a Kindle.

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Tell someone that they'll have to pay up front, $400, for an MP3 player. Then $10. for a CD that isn't even on a real disc, or $1 for a music file that also isn't on a disc. The files you bought have DRM, can only be played on that player you bought, and they can't be converted to MP3. Unless you record it on a blank CD first, then burn it to MP3. And oh, yes, Apple will keep track of everything you've bought, and everything you've searched for, in perpetuity.

The problem with this analogy is that for music (e-mail, software, movies...) you need a device, for books you don't.

Leaving aside the fact that iTunes content is 1-5% of the average iPod content, that the iPod is very useful in a way a ebook reader is not since music is consumed a lot on the go and so on...

After all the interesting discussions here about e-books, I realized that the main hurdle for commercial e-books is essential usefulness.

Yeah, e-books are useful, but essentially so, no, at least not right now when print books have so many comparative advantages. Until e-books bring something really essentially useful, I think that the only way they will compete with print books is if they are free or very cheap relative to print.

So I still believe that the commercial e-book pie while possibly increasing (though it decreased in the latest quarter compared to the previous after several quarters of increases), is going to be a tiny, tiny slice of the book business pie for quite a while...

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

That's not what I said. Please read what I write. Far fewer songs are downloaded from iTunes than you think.

Believe me, I do read what you write. My point is, the fact that iPods aren't filled with 100% iTunes music doesn't mean that the iPod and iTunes combination aren't a product that has been heartily endorsed and accepted by a significant part of the population, and has proven to be commercially successful, DRM, proprietary formats, and all.

In fact, the fact that iPods can also play non-DRM'd, non-proprietary MP3s as well as Apple's formats makes it that much more valuable to the consumer, as the Kindle's being able to play non-DRM'd Mobi files will similarly make it more valuable.

Originally Posted by rlauzon

And where, exactly, can one purchase a text eBook of a current NY Times best seller?

Actually, I wasn't talking about bestsellers... I never read them, myself, so I've never searched for them on e-books. But I have found many of the books I do read in e-book formats, and not all with DRM.

Originally Posted by rlauzon

That is correct. But none of those cheap eBooks are "mainstream". All "mainstream" books that are available as eBooks have DRM. If you are going to talk about the Kindle and eBooks, DRM is something that must be addressed.

As I said, I'll limit my further comments in this thread to Kindle. In that light, I can only say that Amazon and the publishers are doing what they see fit, whatever we think about it. All we can do at this point is try to find a model that will demonstrate to them (or whoever follows them) that DRM'd books and proprietary formats aren't the only way to go.

Originally Posted by Liviu_5

The problem with this analogy is that for music (e-mail, software, movies...) you need a device, for books you don't.

Leaving aside the fact that iTunes content is 1-5% of the average iPod content, that the iPod is very useful in a way a ebook reader is not since music is consumed a lot on the go and so on...

Actually, the printed book IS the device, delivering a work of literature (or other information) that could have been delivered in some other way, such as being recited to you, or presented on film. And paperbacks were primarily designed to give consumers cheaper, smaller editions of books for them to use on the go (obviously, not while you're driving or anything, but when you're out and about, on vacation, etc).

In fact, if you think about it that way, sure, it's cheap... but it can only deliver to you that ONE book, you cannot alter the format or delivery in any way, you can't search, it takes up a lot of storage space, and it wastes a lot of paper for ONE piece of lit. In fact, it's considered so essentially worthless by the author/publisher that they couldn't care less if you keep it, resell it, burn it, or wipe your butt with it on a camping trip... especially after you've given them $10 for it.

("Defective" can be in the eye of the beholder.)

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Believe me, I do read what you write.

Then you aren't reading very well.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

My point is, the fact that iPods aren't filled with 100% iTunes music doesn't mean that the iPod and iTunes combination aren't a product that has been heartily endorsed and accepted by a significant part of the population, and has proven to be commercially successful, DRM, proprietary formats, and all.

And my point is that the popularity of the iPod isn't the endorsement you think it is.

Re-read what you wrote. "the fact that iPods aren't filled with 100% iTunes music".

The fact is that the iPod isn't filled with many iTunes songs at all. Meaning that DRM isn't "heartily endorsed" and has not been "accepted by a significant part of the population". Yes, it's been commercially successful for Apple - but not for anyone else, especially the companies represented by the RIAA.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

In fact, the fact that iPods can also play non-DRM'd, non-proprietary MP3s as well as Apple's formats makes it that much more valuable to the consumer, as the Kindle's being able to play non-DRM'd Mobi files will similarly make it more valuable.

The market has already shown that DRMed iTunes are not more valuable.
1. The iPod and iTunes are not the only digital audio players out there. There are many different companies, all selling quite well.
2. The fact that the vast majority of music even on the popular iPods does not come from iTunes.

Getting back to the Kindle, it offers absolutely no benefit over the other eBook readers on the market today, and is more expensive. Being able to rent eBooks for Amazon at an inflated price over paper is certainly not something that's going for the Kindle.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

As I said, I'll limit my further comments in this thread to Kindle. In that light, I can only say that Amazon and the publishers are doing what they see fit, whatever we think about it. All we can do at this point is try to find a model that will demonstrate to them (or whoever follows them) that DRM'd books and proprietary formats aren't the only way to go.

And we are doing as we see fit: warning people that the Kindle is defective by design. IHMO, Amazon is committing fraud by claiming to sell eBooks when they are actually doing nothing more than selling a license to read them on the Kindle.

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Getting back to the Kindle, it offers absolutely no benefit over the other eBook readers on the market today, and is more expensive. Being able to rent eBooks for Amazon at an inflated price over paper is certainly not something that's going for the Kindle.

I think that a lot of these discussions came from the completely flawed analogy of Kindle with the iPod.

When I think of the success of the iPod, I am pretty sure that by and large people buying it said: well I have (or know how to get) all these tons of mp3's and now here it's a cool machine playing them, and well once in a while I may buy a song from iTunes.

So the analogy would be: well I have (or know how to get) all these tons of (text based - non pdf) e-books and the Kindle looks like a cool/useful device to read them on, and once in a while I may buy a book at Amazon Kindle store.

So I do not think either EVDO or the Kindle store will really make that much of a difference for Kindle. Maybe the search capability and being faster than Sony are the more important characteristics, and ultimately it's there in intrinsic features (capabilities vs price) rather than in being associated with a e-book store where the failure or success will come.

[carld]

Originally Posted by Ervserver

I think people are posting negative Kindle reviews not only to sway the ratings on Amazon but also to torque off Kindle owners. Looks like its working. What is it that makes someone so sensitive about a piece of electronics. If you own a Kindle and love it then it doesn't matter what others say about it.

I don't even own a Kindle yet and I find the negative reviews annoying as hell. I think it's the display of so much simple-minded arrogance by people who massively bash a device sight unseen, and apparently without even bothering to read the specs.

[tsgreer]

Originally Posted by carld

I don't even own a Kindle yet and I find the negative reviews annoying as hell. I think it's the display of so much simple-minded arrogance by people who massively bash a device sight unseen, and apparently without even bothering to read the specs.

And on the Amazon reviews, the arguments are not so much Kindle vs. another e-book reading device--it's the idea of an "e-book reader" vs. paper books.

A lot of the negative reviews are from people afraid that paper books will go away and leave them doomed to forever roam a world of technology that they don't or won't ever understand. Seriously, the majority of them are lame things like "but I can't curl up to the fireplace with it ..."

Um, sure you can. And honestly, let's be real here, even if Amazon decided to sell an Amazon/Sony branded reader rather than their own, the Amazon reviews would be the same. A lot of p-book people hate the very idea that Amazon is in the e-book biz because they are unsure of what that means for them.

Change can be a scary thing. I personally think that there is plenty of room for both and p-books aren't going to go away anytime soon.

[rhadin]

What bothers me most about the Kindle and the Sony 505 (which I got for Xmas), as well as other readers, is the closed system. I know it has been said (written) many times already, but why can't there be a single format that every reader can read? I don't care if the books are DRMed; I just want to be able to go to any bookstore and buy a book without hassle. I also want to be able to comparison shop. The reader isn't going to replace my hardcover book purchases; it is going to be a supplement (much to my wife's chagrin as I already spend $200+ a month on books).

I don't care whether I have Internet access via the reader -- I can load on 25 or so books before I leave on a trip; I don't care if it includes a web browser to let me read my e-mail -- that's what I have a laptop and a desktop for. In fact, I really don't want my reader to be a laptop in disguise. The old saying "jack of all trades, master of none" applies to reader devices too.

Just give me a universal format. Isn't interesting, however, that the ebook format "wars" are reruns of the betamax vs. VHS and the now running Blu-Ray vs HD DVD wars. You would have thought they would have learned that settling on a standard is to all their benefit.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by rhadin

What bothers me most about the Kindle and the Sony 505 (which I got for Xmas), as well as other readers, is the closed system. I know it has been said (written) many times already, but why can't there be a single format that every reader can read? I don't care if the books are DRMed; I just want to be able to go to any bookstore and buy a book without hassle. I also want to be able to comparison shop. The reader isn't going to replace my hardcover book purchases; it is going to be a supplement (much to my wife's chagrin as I already spend $200+ a month on books).

MobiPocket is pretty close to a de facto universal format. It has readers for all sorts of different hardware platforms, and 200+ stores (so Mobi claim!) where you can buy books; there is real competition in the Mobi book market.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by HarryT

MobiPocket is pretty close to a de facto universal format. It has readers for all sorts of different hardware platforms, and 200+ stores (so Mobi claim!) where you can buy books; there is real competition in the Mobi book market.

Harry, I'm new to ebooks so I may be asking something truly stupid, but can I convert the Mobi format for use on my Sony 505? Or is it already usable?

Isn't there a relationship between Amazon and Mobi? If Mobi is the de facto standard, what will be the advantage to Sony of the Adobe format rather than adopting the Mobi format? I was under the impression that the big wait in the ebook world was for the Adobe final standard.

[JohnClif]

A few comments...

First, although I agree that DRM is a pain in the ###, it really doesn't affect me or any other Kindle/Sony/Cybook/etc. ereader until I switch devices. I've bought a considerable amount of ebooks for my Kindle from Amazon, and I love the ability to be in the airport, and instead of plunking down $8 for a paperback or $25 for a hardcover, I can download a $6.99 3-book Michael Connelly collection... and have a couple of days of reading material. I like the fact that I can buy a $25 book for $9.99. And, I like the fact that I can buy last year's NYT Bestsellers for $6 to $9 bucks (just like the old-school versions in the book bins!). I can do all of this without having to be at a bookstore, whether it's late at night at my home, while traveling, while at a lunch break in an unfamiliar city, etc. The power to get new reading material, anytime, anywhere (in the US), without requiring a laptop is what differentiates the Kindle from all other ereaders.

Second, the Kindle can easily read non-DRM popular formats, like .TXT and .MOBI. These can be downloaded directly from websites on the Kindle itself without a computer. Amusingly, Amazon puts up a blurb in the browser warning the user that the downloaded files might not be usable (I guess to protect themselves from people who download a DRM .MOBI file), but if you know what you're doing, you just ignore the alert and you have your ebook.

Third, you can use your computer to bring a huge variety of reading material to the Kindle. For instance, I use MobileReader's RSS feed capability to bring down a virtual newspaper to my device every morning, with the news and information I want from the websites I like to read. I use MobileReader to create ebooks from a variety of public-domain sources and read those ebooks on my Kindle. Lately I've been on a Zane Grey binge.

Fourth, for the new ebook owner, there are no disadvantages to owning a Kindle, and a lot of advantages. Nearly every ebook available on the MobiPocket website is available in the Kindle store. New owners don't have to worry about migrating existing collections of ebooks. Eventually, someone (like Igor) will figure out how to migrate existing DRM .MOBI files over to .AZW.

Fifth, Amazon's unique control over DRM .AZW files does support a model for 'trading in' used ebooks (surrendering your rights for credit). I can see a huge ecosystem evolving for this. You can't do it with .MOBI files because there is no single, centralized database for tracking ownership of DRM .MOBI files, yet there is with .AZW.

In short, all of the whining about DRM ignores one crucial factor that will make or break digital publishing of ebooks: without DRM there is no incentive for the publishing industry to migrate to ebooks. We have DRM for music because millions of people were illegally transferring unprotected music (from CDs) via Napster, etc.

Instead of wanting to completely eliminate DRM, what we should want is the ability to have the same rights we have with a physical book... the right to give or sell the book, or read a single copy on any device, while protecting the publisher's right to receiving compensation for each copy that a different user can simultaneously use. I think Amazon's model is the only model that can support these features.