The Status of Marvin

[JSWolf]

Marvin doesn't need to be professional. But it does have to work properly. Marvin needs some fixes because it's buggy. These are some rather important fixes. Much more important then annotations and syncing.

[rfog]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I am aware that your personal whims are your standard for "professional", that doesn't make it anyone else's standard though. Both iBooks and Kindle are professional, no matter how you cut it. They may not have the features that you personally want and demand, but in the real world, professional is how well an app appeals to the vast majority of users.

A professional reader or a scholar or a reviewer, all three professionals in their area, must/need/have to annotate and export those annotations.

Currently I'm converting to PDF (readable not too big page size PDF) all my reading material to be able to annotate and paint over it, and I'm using a combination to iCloud Drive and DEVONthink tools to maintain synchronized my annotations/work across devices.

And yes, no eBook reader in the world is valid for professional work due its lack of combination of annotation, export and syncing.

[JBaby]

Originally Posted by Valkrider

Sorry I am at odds with the comments about CSS and respecting the publishers layout. I wish that Marvin would replace it all if I want it to. I read in night mode all the time, there is one series of books that come with hard coded black text, set to night mode and no text is visible regardless of the settings. So over to Sigil, edit out all the color tags inline styles and save then reload and I can start reading. Other than that purely as a book reader Marvin does all I need, I don't annotate or anything else so that functionality is not necessary for me and I suspect quite a few others too.

I agree with you. The most I ever do is highlight once in a blue moon. And I only do that to send an error to an indie author. Otherwise the annotation tools go unused.


Sent from my iPhone X using Tapatalk

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rfog

A professional reader or a scholar or a reviewer, all three professionals in their area, must/need/have to annotate and export those annotations.

Currently I'm converting to PDF (readable not too big page size PDF) all my reading material to be able to annotate and paint over it, and I'm using a combination to iCloud Drive and DEVONthink tools to maintain synchronized my annotations/work across devices.

And yes, no eBook reader in the world is valid for professional work due its lack of combination of annotation, export and syncing.

But before the annotation tools are put in place, we need to have correct rendering which we do not have. We have a number of rendering errors that need to be fixed first. It's not professional if we have synchronized annotations but obvious errors in rendering.

[rfog]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But before the annotation tools are put in place, we need to have correct rendering which we do not have. We have a number of rendering errors that need to be fixed first. It's not professional if we have synchronized annotations but obvious errors in rendering.

Of course, but both things need to be addressed.

I can understand that a generic eBook reader like Marvin needs to resolve rendering and other bugs before, but as developer myself, it could be advanced in both frontlines. What I mean is the perfection does not exists and we don't need perfect and exact rendering before start with other parts.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

First off, lets fix the rendering bugs and then work on the annotations.

That is your personal preference, Jon. Mine, and I'm pretty sure most everyone else's, is the other way round. I have seen people ditch Marvin, or refusing to even try Marvin, because it doesn't sync annotations. But I have yet to meet a person ditching/rejecting Marvin because of imperfect CSS rendition.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The CSS deficiencies are not invisible.

They definitely are invisible or inconspicuous, except to a handful of expert users. In contrast to that, if the reply to the question "Does it sync my highlights and annotations?" is "Nope", it's game over for Marvin instantly for many potential users.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

For example, with Marvin, in publisher layout

I for one don't give a damn about "publisher layout". If anything, the freedom afforded by e-books is that I'm given the opportunity to override publisher's layout at my will and whim. The best e-reader app is, therefore, the one that allows me to override publisher's layout entirely to my liking.

I agree with you, though, Jon, that this should be made possible using all functionality provided by CSS and the modular "switching off/on" of its components.

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Both iBooks and Kindle are professional, no matter how you cut it. [...] in the real world, professional is how well an app appeals to the vast majority of users.

You're kidding, eh? If Kindle and Apple Books are "professional", then I'm both the Pope and an astronaut. Or are you, by any chance, a George Orwell fan, redefining the words of the dictionary to suit your argument?

Originally Posted by rfog

A professional reader or a scholar or a reviewer, all three professionals in their area, must/need/have to annotate and export those annotations.

Exactly, and amen to that. The sad conclusion is that, as of spring 2019, no professional e-reader app currently exists on this planet. But as I said, I'm confident that by the time 2039, or 2050, rolls around, it will be different and at least one professional app should be at our disposal then.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rfog

Of course, but both things need to be addressed.

I can understand that a generic eBook reader like Marvin needs to resolve rendering and other bugs before, but as developer myself, it could be advanced in both frontlines. What I mean is the perfection does not exists and we don't need perfect and exact rendering before start with other parts.

Yes we do need proper rendering first. That is the most important part of a reading program. Syncing annotations come after we get correct rendering. So Marvin needs the rendering issues fixed before anything gets done with annotations. The majority of people who read eBooks want them rendered properly more so then syncing annotations.

Fix the rendering and then fix the annotations and voila, done. But annotations is last.

[JSWolf]

Faterson, you don't get it. When Marvin overrides margins, it does it WRONG! It screws up things that need to have the margins rendered correctly. The font in publisher layout is very poor. People looks at a reading program and leave it for a different one when they find it doesn't display the eBook correctly.

I do spend time working on the CSS and I end up with a well formatted eBook. I want that. But I don't want that with a font that's awful.

I know you don't understand the way a reading program should work for most people. But I do an rendering is the top priority. Mist more important then syncing annotations.

[nimapourkarimi]

@JSWolf's avatar is talking I guess, a moron deflected penguin! What are you talking about? you're actually saying you KNOW he does not understand and you do? who do you think you are?!!

[Turtle91]

JSWolf - You will never win an argument against Faterson...it's always going to be he is right, you are wrong. Full stop.

What might help is if you change the words he uses: instead of him saying that "Marvin is not a professional app", he should be saying "Marvin is not an app for professionals". In that case, I would agree with him completely. 99% of the people who use Marvin are using it to read books....and for that it works better than anything else I have seen - even though it does have it's warts. The other 1% of professionals who want to use all these research and other functions probably wont use Marvin...that's OK.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

JSWolf - You will never win an argument against Faterson...it's always going to be he is right, you are wrong. Full stop.

What might help is if you change the words he uses: instead of him saying that "Marvin is not a professional app", he should be saying "Marvin is not an app for professionals". In that case, I would agree with him completely. 99% of the people who use Marvin are using it to read books....and for that it works better than anything else I have seen - even though it does have it's warts. The other 1% of professionals who want to use all these research and other functions probably wont use Marvin...that's OK.

If by professional, you mean researchers, then I would expect that most researchers would use some sort of notebook system rather than depend on annotations in an ebook. Heck, I'm not even sure how one would reference an ebook in a footnote. When I'm on a computer, I normally use either Yojimbo or Evernote for such purposes. That's really what Yojimbo was designed to do.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

...That's really what Yojimbo was designed to do.

My point exactly. Marvin was NOT designed to be all that for researchers. Kris designed it to be a really good ereader, with some cool extra functionality. It was not designed to be an app for professionals.

I personally think Kris gave up from frustration with the character(s) involved and all their specialized demands...and putting down his work at every opportunity unless he did everything exactly as they wanted...

[MSWallack]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I personally think Kris gave up from frustration with the character(s) involved and all their specialized demands

Add to this the fact that many people can't simply offer a polite suggestion but, instead, issue demands based upon self-righteous pontifications of certainty. Those are the things that drive a developer to find other things to do.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

My point exactly. Marvin was NOT designed to be all that for researchers. Kris designed it to be a really good ereader, with some cool extra functionality. It was not designed to be an app for professionals.

I personally think Kris gave up from frustration with the character(s) involved and all their specialized demands...and putting down his work at every opportunity unless he did everything exactly as they wanted...

That was pretty much my take as well. It really is too bad.

[Faterson]

Sure, user feedback pointing out the shortcomings and bugs of an app is responsible for unfinished software. Classic "blame the victim" mentality.

MobileRead forums really are hopeless – they often (at least in the Marvin subforum) devolve into personal attacks on MobileRead posters providing feedback on e-reader apps, and I try to stay away from the toxic atmosphere around here as much as possible. Sorry to have disturbed your slumber, guys, because otherwise this MR subsection has been dead for months and years, hasn't it? I finally got the iPad mini 5 in the store yesterday, and that's it. That's the only reason I again provided some input into this thread after many months. I hope to stay away from MobileRead for many months more, from now onwards.

It's really amusing when folks who obviously have no clue how a professional reviewer, proofreader or scholar of literature works, offer the likes of Evernote (!) as a replacement for Marvin. Any discussion instantly becomes meaningless, then.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But I do an rendering is the top priority. Mist more important then syncing annotations.

Nope, that's just your personal preference, Jon, just like, for many years, you proclaimed "ADE page numbers" (something most people don't care about) to be the most important issue on planet Earth. Your personal preferences must be respected, Jon, but that's all they are – personal preferences, no more. And I'm pretty sure most e-book readers view annotations syncing as more important than 100% CSS fidelity. (Also, it wouldn't hurt to proofread your own posts before hitting the Submit button.)