Which Will Win Out, Sony Reader or Kindle?

[Shenzhov]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Could you share with us your reason for believing that a next gen Kindle is "right around the corner", please?

Cnet is reporting rumors this week of a new kindle in the works.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9992240-1.html

Report: New Kindle due in October
Posted by Steven Musil 4 comments

Two new Kindle models are expected to be available on Amazon.com in time for the holiday shipping season, with the first coming as early as October, an "insider" tells CrunchGear.

The soon-to-be-replaced Kindle?
(Credit: Amazon.com)

The first model will be an update of the current e-book reader, with the same screen size and an improved interface, according to the tipster. The source told CrunchGear that Amazon has "skipped three or four generations" with the update.

The second new model will be considerably larger, shaped like an 8.5-inch by 11-inch piece of paper, and is expected to be available next year.

Both models are expected to be available in multiple colors, but apparently, no clues were offered on pricing points for the new models.

The Kindle connects to the Web to download books--a feature that separates it from other e-readers that must sync to a PC to load a book. When the e-tailer, dabbling in electronics manufacturing for the first time, introduced the device in late 2007, it immediately sold out of Kindles. This led to speculation that the delays were caused by production problems or were planned deliberately to stoke more demand.

[HarryT]

Yes, I know about that, but it's pure speculation - the article you quote itself describes it as a "rumour". You're reporting it as though it were definite fact, which, with all due respect, it most certainly is not.

[mye01]

i cant say which is better between the 2..i only tried SONY, i must say i never had any problems with it..so i guess i'll stick with sony.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by dsuden

As a person who has a stake in this (I have a Sony PRS 505), I'm curious to hear people's opinions about which of the top two readers is the more likely to eventually capture/dominate the market. Will Amazon's "bookstore status" give it the upper hand? Will Sony win people over with its simplicity/elegance?

Also, which company do you think is more committed to its product?

I guess my answer to this is a question:

Does it really matter?

There is no doubt that a PC with the Windows OS is the dominant choice, especially in most businesses. However, there are other choices, primarily Mac and Linux. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

There is room in the market for both devices. Actually, I would rather see the eBook market be more similar to the DVD player market than the PC or MP3 player market. I want to be able to choose any device by any manufacturer and be able to read all my books on it instantly. If this happens it will be a win for the consumers which is more important to me that a "win" for Sony or Amazon.

BOb

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

There is room in the market for both devices. Actually, I would rather see the eBook market be more similar to the DVD player market than the PC or MP3 player market. I want to be able to choose any device by any manufacturer and be able to read all my books on it instantly. If this happens it will be a win for the consumers which is more important to me that a "win" for Sony or Amazon.

What you're asking for is a common ebook format everyone supports, so it doesn't matter which device you use to read it.

I concur. I maintain five different viewers to handle the various content on my PDA, and must remember which content is in which format. The good part is that I can handle pretty much anything. The bad part is that it's more effort than it really should be.

And I think casting it in terms of Amazon Kindle vs Sony Reader is misleading. What about the Bookeen Cybook, iRex Iliad, or Hanlin devices? And the eBookwise 1150 is still out there, with the manufactuer readying an eInk based device, not to meantion the plethora of PDAs and cell phones that can be used as book viewers.

There's room for a lot more than one device in the market.
______
Dennis

[herbalist]

I hope it is the Sony because imho Amazon should not be in the hardware business in the first place! If they concentrate on selling ebooks to all ereader devices, they will make much more money and the rest of us who are not kindle owners would a bigger selection in books.

[carld]

Originally Posted by herbalist

I hope it is the Sony because imho Amazon should not be in the hardware business in the first place! If they concentrate on selling ebooks to all ereader devices, they will make much more money and the rest of us who are not kindle owners would a bigger selection in books.

Why shouldn't Amazon be in the hardware business?

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by herbalist

I hope it is the Sony because imho Amazon should not be in the hardware business in the first place! If they concentrate on selling ebooks to all ereader devices, they will make much more money and the rest of us who are not kindle owners would a bigger selection in books.

As a very happy Kindle owner, I respectfully disagree with your comment. They did their homework, and came up with a near perfect design. I would really like to know why you would think they should not be in the hardware business. Regardless of what you think of the product, its obviously a succcess. And yes, there is room enough for many different kinds of readers, each geared to a different need for different people.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by herbalist

I hope it is the Sony because imho Amazon should not be in the hardware business in the first place! If they concentrate on selling ebooks to all ereader devices, they will make much more money and the rest of us who are not kindle owners would a bigger selection in books.

Amazon is not in the "hardware" business, they are in retail focusing primarily on books.

And, as a bookseller they have (very wisely, I think) decided to provide not only ebooks, but a dedicated reader for them.

You think Amazon will make more money if they go into direct competition with Sony and start selling lrf format books?? You honestly think Sony is going to give Amazon the right to do that?? I mean, I'm not one with a lot of respect for Sony, but even they have to know that the real profit isn't in the device ... it's in the books for the device purchased over the long term. I've only had my Kindle about two months, but I've already spent well over $600 on books from Amazon.

If Amazon concentrated on providing books for all ebook readers, there would be a lot of very unhappy companies out there ... probably screaming "monopoly" at the top of their lungs.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by herbalist

I hope it is the Sony because imho Amazon should not be in the hardware business in the first place! If they concentrate on selling ebooks to all ereader devices, they will make much more money and the rest of us who are not kindle owners would a bigger selection in books.

They barely are. They contract with separate companies for both the hardware and the firmware. They're the reseller and are making the feature decisions but they're not doing the implementation. Their biggest contribution is making a great store and that's where the real money is.

That's why I'm a bit concerned for Sony despite the fact that they've just released great new firmware. The Connect store is not a big attraction and the new firmware should make a lot of revenue for other stores. I think eventually that will be a great move for them as well as being great for us consumers, but right now the market is still small. E-ink is still at a premium. Sony is charging a very low price all things considered, but it's still not a low price. They've got the kind of margin you need volume to sustain and a market that's not ready for volume. I hope they're willing to stay in the game for awhile until they can compete on a pure device level rather than a device + store combination.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Amazon is not in the "hardware" business, they are in retail focusing primarily on books.

And, as a bookseller they have (very wisely, I think) decided to provide not only ebooks, but a dedicated reader for them.

Wisely for them, at least. They can use their market position to drive demand both ways. They can offer superior pricing, if you use a Kindle, which encourages you to get a Kindle to get the pricing advantage. You are locked into Amazon's proprietary platform, and to them as the seller.

It all works fine as long as Amazon carries the content you want and you are happy with the Kindle as a platform. If either of those choices is untrue, things change.

You think Amazon will make more money if they go into direct competition with Sony and start selling lrf format books?? You honestly think Sony is going to give Amazon the right to do that?? I mean, I'm not one with a lot of respect for Sony, but even they have to know that the real profit isn't in the device ... it's in the books for the device purchased over the long term. I've only had my Kindle about two months, but I've already spent well over $600 on books from Amazon.

If Amazon concentrated on providing books for all ebook readers, there would be a lot of very unhappy companies out there ... probably screaming "monopoly" at the top of their lungs.

Amazon selling Sony LRF is a fatuous comparison. Amazon has no need to sell Sony LRF, whether of not Sony would permit it. If it's available for the Sony Reader in LRF format, it's almost certainly available for the Kindle. The reverse is not true.

The issue is whether you can get what you want, and have choices about where you get it. For paper books, you have many choices about where you can purchase a title, both in brick and mortar, and on line. For dedicated readers, you don't. Want a commercial title for the Sony REader? Go to the Sony Connect store. Want a commercial title for the Kindle? Go the the Kindle store.

I see the Sony firmware update adding ePub capability as a huge step, because it potentially breaks the tie to the Sony Connect store. You should be able to get an ePub formatted book from anywhere and read it on the Sony Reader. (From reports elsewhere in MR, all ePub files are not created equal, and some people have tried don't run on the Sony, but that seems to be an issue with the file, and not the Sony firmware.)

The biggest advantage the Kindle has over the Sony Reader at the moment is a broader variety of content available for the Kindle. If that advantage should diminish, things might get interesting.

Essentially, I think Sony and Amazon are approaching this from different perspectives. Sony wants to sell hardware, and when they chose to offer a reader, had to provide content to read on it, and create the infrastructure to sell it to you. Amazon wants to sell content, and already had the infrastructure to do the sales. They simply needed to create the hardware to read on it. They didn't really have to create the hardware: they could have simply chosen to offer ebooks in popular formats. But by offering their own hardware and using a proprietary DRM solution, they encourage sales of their device as well as their ebooks.

Basically, for Sony, I think it's about the reader. For Amazon, I think it's about the books. If ePub takes off as a popular end user format, I don't think Sony will be unhappy. More sources of content means more potential Reader sales, and they might not cry too hard if it meant winding down Sony Connect. Sony historically hasn't been in the business of selling content. They've been a supplier of devices to play content. I don't think the Reader has changed that orientation.

I'll be curious to see what Amazon will do if ePub takes off.
______
Dennis

[herbalist]

By developing, marketing and selling the kindle, Amazon got into the hardware business. It didn't matter they contract out the design or manufacturing (most use contract manufacturing anyway).

@$399, the Kindle is not a subsidized device but I doubt if the
Kindles have a hefty profit margin either. Ideally, Amazon should sell this as cheaply as possible (the original price probably reflects the lowest they are willing to go) because, the real profit is in selling content when Kindle owners start to buy regularly from Amazon. But I am guessing that they aren't moving as many Kindles as they like and must cut price to drive demand. $50 drop is as low as they can go now. Are they making much $ off the hardware at current price, I don't think so.

What I am contending is that Amazon should continue to focus on selling books - their expertise. They should open their store and provide content for all ebook devices (Sony, Iliad, Cybook) out there. Upcoming ebook devices will likely include the MIDs and certain type of netbooks and tablet computers. So there really is a growing market and demand for ebook buyers out there. Amazon can either move in and fill the demand (sell content) or wait until others (publisers selling directly or the likes of Borders and B&N) do it for them.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by herbalist

By developing, marketing and selling the kindle, Amazon got into the hardware business. It didn't matter they contract out the design or manufacturing (most use contract manufacturing anyway).

@$399, the Kindle is not a subsidized device but I doubt if the
Kindles have a hefty profit margin either. Ideally, Amazon should sell this as cheaply as possible (the original price probably reflects the lowest they are willing to go) because, the real profit is in selling content when Kindle owners start to buy regularly from Amazon. But I am guessing that they aren't moving as many Kindles as they like and must cut price to drive demand. $50 drop is as low as they can go now. Are they making much $ off the hardware at current price, I don't think so.

What I am contending is that Amazon should continue to focus on selling books - their expertise. They should open their store and provide content for all ebook devices (Sony, Iliad, Cybook) out there. Upcoming ebook devices will likely include the MIDs and certain type of netbooks and tablet computers. So there really is a growing market and demand for ebook buyers out there. Amazon can either move in and fill the demand (sell content) or wait until others (publisers selling directly or the likes of Borders and B&N) do it for them.

Amazon sells way more than books and Kindles. Its the first place I go for just about anything. Tools for my husband, (he's very picky about brands, etc) kitchen appliances, movies, toys, office products, computer stuff, you name it. Their return policy is generous, and most items I can get for free shipping, as long as I spend $25 or more. This saves me gas, and lots of aggravation.
Here's the thing....I don't feel anyone has the right to say what they should or should not do. How arrogant. If the path they choose leads them over the cliff, its their funeral. Considering the growth they've shown, seems like they are on the right path.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by herbalist

By developing, marketing and selling the kindle, Amazon got into the hardware business. It didn't matter they contract out the design or manufacturing (most use contract manufacturing anyway).

Correct. The question is how much the distinction matters.

The issue from a business perspective in something like that is "Do you understand the business you are getting into, and can you successfully manage it and make money?" There have been classic cases of companies who failed to understand that entering into a new area meant a whole new business model, with corresponding lack of success.

@$399, the Kindle is not a subsidized device but I doubt if the
Kindles have a hefty profit margin either. Ideally, Amazon should sell this as cheaply as possible (the original price probably reflects the lowest they are willing to go) because, the real profit is in selling content when Kindle owners start to buy regularly from Amazon. But I am guessing that they aren't moving as many Kindles as they like and must cut price to drive demand. $50 drop is as low as they can go now. Are they making much $ off the hardware at current price, I don't think so.

The price dropped from $400 to $350 largely due to efficiency tweaks and supply chain management. It's not subsidized, and I don't see further price cuts happening soon. The market for the Kindle isn't big enough for economies of scale to really come into play.

Offering it cheaper would require subsidization of some sort, though it's unclear who might do so or why. AT&T is partially subsidizing the iPhone resulting in lower costs to buyers, and has locked up exclusive rights on it till 2010. But AT&T is very happy with the new cell phone contracts they are selling as part of the deal, so for them it's a win. Who might subsidize the Kindle, and why?

What I am contending is that Amazon should continue to focus on selling books - their expertise. They should open their store and provide content for all ebook devices (Sony, Iliad, Cybook) out there. Upcoming ebook devices will likely include the MIDs and certain type of netbooks and tablet computers. So there really is a growing market and demand for ebook buyers out there. Amazon can either move in and fill the demand (sell content) or wait until others (publisers selling directly or the likes of Borders and B&N) do it for them.

Amazon sells a great deal more than books. They are effectively a mail order retailer ala Sears Roebuck, only operating over the internet rather than through the mail, and without also having brick and mortar stores. Their expertise is is order processing and fulfillment, and they hired senior executives from places like Walmart and UPS to help plan their warehousing and distribution operations when they were building their business. The Kindle is simply one more product you can buy through them, but one in which they also have an ownership stake.

I'd like to see Amazon offer electronic content in other formats, too, but I understand their motives. They can use their market position to drive sales both ways: you buy ebooks from Amazon to get superior pricing, but you have to have a Kindle to read them, so you get a Kindle. Amazon butters its bread on both sides.

Is that they best deal for you? No, but they aren't doing it for you. Amazon is a publicly held company with a fiduciary responsibility to preserve and grow the shareholder's investment, and they will do what they feel best accomplishes that goal. In this case, they feel that locking the buyer into a proprietary reader (and thereby locking them into Amazon as the vendor) is the best way to go.
______
Dennis

[astra]

Originally Posted by igorsk

I'm sorry but this question is pretty useless, everyone will just pitch the reader he likes best...

Could not agree more.

To Each Its Own. I hope both will stay and compete. We need all of them to promote ebooks.