GPL violation? - Page 5

delphidb96 · 03-01-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

Of course not. So what is your point? Do tou thing they have rewritten these drivers for the Cybook?

No, it is not. It is like selling a stolen car you have bought (expect that copyright infornement is not theft).

No. When you buy a book you get the permission to sell it further or to give it away. When you buy a book from somebody that does not have the right to sell the book you do not get that permission.

First, I strongly doubt that Bookeen has modified the OS in the slightest. But I don't know this to be true.

Second, not it's not. There are hundreds, maybe even thousands of products out there which use some form of embedded Linux. Almost none of them state this to be the case, and I doubt many of them make any effort to let the customer have the source code to the OS - just try to get most auto-manufacturers to give you, the owner and driver of a car, that source code. Ain't gonna happen. (And you'd be surprised just how many makes and models use embedded Linux.) Same with refrigerators and toasters with embedded Linux. Yes, they *should* make the source code available, but they don't - and this has been going on long enough and widely spread enough that you'd have a hard time winning a court battle.

Third, anyone has the right to sell their personal copy of a book. What they don't have the right to do is steal the contents and market as their own work or use that copy to create other copies for sale.

Derek

pruss · 03-02-2008, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delphidb96

Third, anyone has the right to sell their personal copy of a book.

I bet this is not true if their personal copy exists in violation of copyright (if I buy a bootleg copy of a book, I doubt I can legally resell it).

HarryT · 03-02-2008, 04:23 AM

OK, I think we're established that the hardware suppliers are in the wrong through not supplying Bookeen with the source code. Next question is, what are those people who care about this going to DO about it?

Might it be a good idea to write to Bookeen and request the name of the suppliers, so that you can directly request the source code from them?

FixB · 03-02-2008, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's the recalcitrant hardware supplier who needs to be "reported", Frank. Until Bookeen can get the source from them, they in turn can't give it to you.

I disagree here : even if it's not really Bookeen's fault, they still sell the device to end-users : I should think that reporting this to fsfeurope can only help. (I would do it if I was not such a ignorant where GPL and other-like licenses are concerned)

delphidb96 · 03-02-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

OK, I think we're established that the hardware suppliers are in the wrong through not supplying Bookeen with the source code. Next question is, what are those people who care about this going to DO about it?

Might it be a good idea to write to Bookeen and request the name of the suppliers, so that you can directly request the source code from them?

Been there, done that. Waiting for a response. However, SOMEONE can sacrifice a Cybook for the good of all and tear it apart looking for manufacturer's information - ain't gonna be me 'cause I USE my Cybook - and have to have it available for demos to potential customers.

Derek

delphidb96 · 03-02-2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FixB

I disagree here : even if it's not really Bookeen's fault, they still sell the device to end-users : I should think that reporting this to fsfeurope can only help. (I would do it if I was not such a ignorant where GPL and other-like licenses are concerned)

And yet you're the one who's making the MOST noise about this - so why NOT you? Do you not have a computer? Can you not use Google to find out where to file? You seem to be quite prepared to 'fight the good fight' on this issue, so please, feel free to make a case with fsfeurope.

Derek

delphidb96 · 03-02-2008, 11:11 PM

Free Software Foundation has a web-page which details the reporting process. It's here:

http://www.fsf.org/licensing/license...violation.html

Part of the problem is that the Cybook does not contain an explicit notification of the use of Linux, nor which platform/family from which it is derived. Further, none of the documentation states anything about receiving source code or licensing information (GPL or otherwise). And even the most cursory reading of the FSF webpage pretty much makes it clear this information is necessary somewhere.

Derek

dottedmag · 03-03-2008, 08:37 AM

JFYI: we at OpenInkpot did the analysis of Hanlin V3 firmware and sent it to the gpl-violations.org (as Jinke is Chinese and OEM lBook is Ukrainian). Both Hanlin and lBook refused to release source code, and gpl-violations.org is overloaded with the requests for GPL violations.

So we just reverse-engineered all the parts we needed and now working on open-source firmware without any code from Jinke.

Snuffi · 03-03-2008, 09:42 AM

While I, of course, would never suggest that Bookeen should go out of business just because they are selling a device which includes a violation of the GPL I still have to wonder how easy companies get away with copyright infringements - even in the eyes of people on the forum here.

If I buy a Windows CD (including packaging and hologram, mind you) on a street market and because those friendly, chinese-looking people are selling it so cheap that I decide to buy one for my friends and family, too, I highly doubt that the police, Microsoft or anyone else would suggest that I can go on selling those CDs to my friends while asking back to those street vendors whether they were sure that those CDs were really legal. And if, in the end, it turns out they were not legal I equally doubt that I could just point my finger at them and claim I did it all "in good faith". In most countries the law clearly states that if there's something "fishy" about the deal (and that extends to "it's just too cheap to be true") you can't claim "good faith" and the rules for companies are much more strict than for end-users.

And about the responsibility: If I build a house for someone and leave the actual work to sub-contractors I am still fully responsible for everything. If I am sued I can then sue my sub-contractor in turn but I will always be the first party responsible.

Jellby · 03-03-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delphidb96

Part of the problem is that the Cybook does not contain an explicit notification of the use of Linux, nor which platform/family from which it is derived. Further, none of the documentation states anything about receiving source code or licensing information (GPL or otherwise).

At least in http://www.bookeen.com/specs/ebook-hardware.aspx they say the OS is "Embedded Linux". So either it's a GPL OS, or they are using Linux's name in vain. The absence of a mention about the source code is in itself a GPL violation, I think.

HarryT · 03-03-2008, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snuffi

In most countries the law clearly states that if there's something "fishy" about the deal (and that extends to "it's just too cheap to be true") you can't claim "good faith" and the rules for companies are much more strict than for end-users.

If that's the case, a hell of a lot of people are in the same boat. The Gen3 is using PVI's "reference platform" for its hardware, as are Hanlin, and a number of other eInk devices on the market. I strongly suspect that all the "internals" originate in the same factory somewhere, and that if the manufacturer is refusing to release the source code to Bookeen, the same is true for all the other licencees, too.

That doesn't make it "right", obviously.

delphidb96 · 03-03-2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellby

At least in http://www.bookeen.com/specs/ebook-hardware.aspx they say the OS is "Embedded Linux". So either it's a GPL OS, or they are using Linux's name in vain. The absence of a mention about the source code is in itself a GPL violation, I think.

And they mention it in their Cybook User's Guide ebook. So, yes, Bookeen needs to either mention who the hardware manufacturer is and state that the manufacturer is their (Bookeen's) OEM source for the Linux, or, more properly, state both the manufacturer AND the variant of Linux used. (As well as a statement to the effect that the Linux OS is a GPL'd product.)

Derek

delphidb96 · 03-03-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

If that's the case, a hell of a lot of people are in the same boat. The Gen3 is using PVI's "reference platform" for its hardware, as are Hanlin, and a number of other eInk devices on the market. I strongly suspect that all the "internals" originate in the same factory somewhere, and that if the manufacturer is refusing to release the source code to Bookeen, the same is true for all the other licencees, too.

That doesn't make it "right", obviously.

Are we SURE that the Cybook is using the PVI 'reference platform' SBC? If so, then we can possibly check with PVI for the OS source code.

Derek

HarryT · 03-03-2008, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delphidb96

Are we SURE that the Cybook is using the PVI 'reference platform' SBC? If so, then we can possibly check with PVI for the OS source code.

Derek

I'm not 101% certain, but I'm sure I read somewhere, back in the initial days of the Gen3, that it does. Do you know of any way we could check up on that?

HarryT · 03-03-2008, 02:02 PM

Hmmm. A Google search provides no relevent hits. I may have been wrong in saying that; apologies if that's the case

.

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HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	OK, I think we're established that the hardware suppliers are in the wrong through not supplying Bookeen with the source code. Next question is, what are those people who care about this going to DO about it? Might it be a good idea to write to Bookeen and request the name of the suppliers, so that you can directly request the source code from them?

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delphidb96 Wizard Posts: 2,999 Karma: 300001 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Citrus Heights, California Device: TWO Kindle 2s, one each Bookeen Cybook Gen3, Sony PRS-500, Axim X51V	Free Software Foundation has a web-page which details the reporting process. It's here: http://www.fsf.org/licensing/license...violation.html Part of the problem is that the Cybook does not contain an explicit notification of the use of Linux, nor which platform/family from which it is derived. Further, none of the documentation states anything about receiving source code or licensing information (GPL or otherwise). And even the most cursory reading of the FSF webpage pretty much makes it clear this information is necessary somewhere. Derek

03-03-2008, 08:37 AM	#68
dottedmag OpenInkpot co-founder Posts: 410 Karma: 845 Join Date: Dec 2007 Device: Kindle Oasis	JFYI: we at OpenInkpot did the analysis of Hanlin V3 firmware and sent it to the gpl-violations.org (as Jinke is Chinese and OEM lBook is Ukrainian). Both Hanlin and lBook refused to release source code, and gpl-violations.org is overloaded with the requests for GPL violations. So we just reverse-engineered all the parts we needed and now working on open-source firmware without any code from Jinke.

03-03-2008, 09:42 AM	#69
Snuffi Addict Posts: 245 Karma: 718 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Vienna Device: Pocketbook Pro 612, Bookeen Cybook Gen3	While I, of course, would never suggest that Bookeen should go out of business just because they are selling a device which includes a violation of the GPL I still have to wonder how easy companies get away with copyright infringements - even in the eyes of people on the forum here. If I buy a Windows CD (including packaging and hologram, mind you) on a street market and because those friendly, chinese-looking people are selling it so cheap that I decide to buy one for my friends and family, too, I highly doubt that the police, Microsoft or anyone else would suggest that I can go on selling those CDs to my friends while asking back to those street vendors whether they were sure that those CDs were really legal. And if, in the end, it turns out they were not legal I equally doubt that I could just point my finger at them and claim I did it all "in good faith". In most countries the law clearly states that if there's something "fishy" about the deal (and that extends to "it's just too cheap to be true") you can't claim "good faith" and the rules for companies are much more strict than for end-users. And about the responsibility: If I build a house for someone and leave the actual work to sub-contractors I am still fully responsible for everything. If I am sued I can then sue my sub-contractor in turn but I will always be the first party responsible.

03-03-2008, 02:02 PM	#75
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Hmmm. A Google search provides no relevent hits. I may have been wrong in saying that; apologies if that's the case .

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