Death of E-Ink display?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

I do agree with most of that. When I buy a tablet device down the road I'm not going to ditch my Kindle, or MP3 player or laptop.

It will get used primarily for reading and marking up academic articles and books. It will replace my old Palm Pilot (which I seldom use as I mainly just use the Palm software on my PC) for my organizer. And it will get used for light web browsing and net surfing in place of buying a netbook--assuming the tablet is powerful enough to handle HD video streaming etc. which is a big reason I've decided not to buy a Netbook.

Anyway, point being, one doesn't have to want a multifunction device to replace a bunch of stuff. It can still be a supplement. The primary function I want one for is marking up pdfs etc., but I'd like it to be able to do PDA, internet etc. as then it's even more functional. Otherwise it would only get used a handful of times a month when I'm actively reading articles etc.

I went with a netbook because I decided to stay with SD level video (which it could handle). On a small screen (8.9 inches or less), I didn't feel HD was worth the extra processing costs. (And SD level video takes less space on my SD chips.) But that's to individual taste....

And yes, I would like a reader capable of color, and SD level video, (and WAV file or FLAC playback while I'm at it), but those are secondary features. I won't give up a bistable (ultra-low energy) screen to get them....

[GA Russell]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

At $50-$99, they are an impulse purchase. But we aren't going to see them at that price anytime soon.

Not so fast, Dennis!

The Toshiba LCD is non-backlit too. I got my jetBook Lite from Newegg for $117. I think it was Fictionwise who offered a jetBook Lite and $50 credit for books for $149.

So I think the time of a non-backlit eBook reader for $99 is upon us!

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by HarryT

They are certainly gadgets for those with a fair amount of disposable income, just as iPods are. Most eInk devices are in broadly the same price category as higher-end iPods. I don't think that makes them a "fringe novelty", though, unless you consider reading for pleasure to itself be a "fringe" activity these days?

They are a "fringe novelty" for the mass of the reading population.

You need to not only read for pleasure. You need to read a lot, be an "early adopter", and have the spare disposable income not already spent on an iPod, iPhone, big screen TV or the like.

What percentage of the total reading for pleasure population do you suppose this describes? If you think it's a majority, I'd love to know why.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

Not so fast, Dennis!

The Toshiba LCD is non-backlit too. I got my jetBook Lite from Newegg for $117. I think it was Fictionwise who offered a jetBook Lite and $50 credit for books for $149.

So I think the time of a non-backlit eBook reader for $99 is upon us!

Beg pardon. I was referring specifically to devices using eInk screens.

I'm aware non-eInk non-backlit devices exist, but they are a tiny fraction of the market at the moment.
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Dennis

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Dedicated word processors, yes. PDA's, yes and already mentioned. Print/scan/fax has not replaced dedicated machines by any stretch of the imagination; while Palm has completely dropped PDA's, for example, HP still sells dozens of printers (ranging from small printers to medium-sized lasers to photo printers to large-format plotters), Brother still sells close to a dozen fax machine models, Epson has numerous dedicated scanners, and so forth.

Replaced in installed base? No-most of the installed base is still single-function devices. Replaced in what's available? No, you can still buy a wide range of single-function devices. Replaced in what's actually selling? At the consumer level, yes. It's becoming difficult to tell, what with many single-purpose printers being bundled with computers, but based on what's selling as separate purchases, the multi-function devices are far more popular. At the consumer level.

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

The premise that "multifunction devices always supplant focused ones, to the point of the cessation of the focused device," simply does not have much historic merit or precedence. It can happen, and has happened, but it certainly doesn't happen 100% of the time. And since a few critical advantages of epaper will be lost with tablets (battery life, weight, readability, no distractions etc), even if tablets go into wide use it's unlikely that epaper-type devices will completely disappear any time soon.

And that is pretty definitely true. They might (or might not) disappear from stores, but they almost certainly won't disappear as in not being made any more. Not even the 'dedicated word processor' has disappeared yet, except at the home/consumer level. Every shipping office I've seen has at least one they keep around to complete those pre-printed forms. (But pre-printed forms themselves are being replaced by online forms. That's probably why the only place I see typewriters any more are in shipping offices.)

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I went with a netbook because I decided to stay with SD level video (which it could handle). On a small screen (8.9 inches or less), I didn't feel HD was worth the extra processing costs. (And SD level video takes less space on my SD chips.) But that's to individual taste....

Yep, just a matter of what you need. Netbooks I've tried couldn't handle ESPN360 for streaming sports (and that's not HD), Hulu, the network site, Netflix instant watch etc. And I use that stuff a ton on my laptop.

And yes, I would like a reader capable of color, and SD level video, (and WAV file or FLAC playback while I'm at it), but those are secondary features. I won't give up a bistable (ultra-low energy) screen to get them....

Yep, I'll not give it up either, and keep my Kindle for leisure reading. For me a tablet will be a work device (marking up PDFs, PDA etc.), with secondary use for web browsing, e-mail, video etc.--not really a reader per se specifically.

Plenty of room for both dedicated readers and tablets in the market--and in my house/office!

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

You need to not only read for pleasure. You need to read a lot, be an "early adopter", and have the spare disposable income not already spent on an iPod, iPhone, big screen TV or the like.

What percentage of the total reading for pleasure population do you suppose this describes? If you think it's a majority, I'd love to know why.

Agreed. Right now e-readers are for those who read a LOT and are comfortable moving to e-books. Kind of a niche with in a niche (especially in younger generations). But a fairly sizable niche never the less.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Such as what for example? What can a simple eInk reader not do that other reading devices - let's take a paper book as an example - can do? Many can actually do more than a book - eg search for a word or phrase, or change the text size, or the font.

My primary eBook reader is a Palm OS PDA. What can it do?

All the standard Palm PIM functions.

Word processing, via software and a folding keypoard.

Viewing and editing Word Documents and Excel spreadsheets.

Viewing photos.

Viewing videos.

Playing MP3s.

Surfing the web,

Getting and responding to email.

Communicating with host systems via telnet or ssh, and exchanging files via SMB or FTP.

Programming in BASIC, C, Rexx, Python, Tcl, Lisp and several other languages.

Reading ebooks in eReader, MobiPocket, Plucker, PDF, Word, RTF, and text formats, as well as Palm DOC files and zTXT files. Bookmarks, searching, and annotations are supported, depending upon the document format. Formatting and font size are also adjustable

Databases on a wide number of topics for a pocket reference library.

Scientific calculations.

And oh, yes, it plays games, including emulators for a number of classic gaming consoles.

What can I do with a dedicated reader?

What you mentioned.

The two drawbacks to my device are battery life and screen size. I need to top it off every couple of days in normal usage. This is not a huge imposition. And I'd love a screen larger than the 320x480 screen it uses. I don't have any problem reading backlit LCD screens, so the eInk display is not an improvement for my eyes, and the PDA supports color, which is a requirement here. (And I can turn the backlight off, which makes it usable out doors.)

I'm not in the market for a dedicated reader, because I want a device that does other things as well. I'm willing to carry a cell phone and a multi-function device. I'm not willing to carry a cell phone, multi-function device, and an ereader. (I don't want a smartphone which is multi-function device and phone. I want my phone tiny, clipped to my belt, and able to place/receive calls and that's it. That makes the screen too small for most of the other functions.)

I understand why fiolks find a dedicated reader using an eInk display preferable, but I'm not one of them.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

To the bolded that should be "I want". I don't mind a bulkier phone. Have an LG voyager now as I wanted the full, physical keyboard as I text a good amount. Still fits in my pocket, and the size trader off is worth the added functionality for me.

I can text, but don't. I receive them on occasion, but don't send them.

And besides, smart phones like the iPhone, Android etc. are still pretty thin, light and easily fit in a pocket. So it's not like smart phones are huge and a hassle to carry around.

Agreed, and I'm vaguely interested in Android because I'm an OS geek. But my cell phone is a tiny low-end Nokia, about 4"x1.5"x3/4". It lives in a holster on my belt. Since all I want the phone to do is place/receive calls, I don't need the added size and functionality.

Same, my PDA stays in my briefcase, so I'd have little issues carrying a 10" tablet around that could replace the PDA and finally have a good alternative to carrying around printouts of the academic articles I'm currently reading and marking up.

I feel about the same. I love my PDA with a passion, and if I could get the same functions with a bigger screen, I'd be delighted. Not yet, however.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by DD1509

With the pending Apple tablet and now the Microsoft via Kurzweil reader software, is this spelling the death of the E-Ink screen? The big TWO are going to push a color screen with back lighting. They want a rich, robust, backlit color environment. B&N helped a bit toward this goal by adding color in their 2nd display at the bottom of the Nook. The future looks like it will be an LED screen.

Can the E-Ink display hold off this onslaught? Will it simply become a blip on the radar of the history of eBooks when we look back in 5 years?

Oh, dear. The myth of the Apple Tablet as eReader killer.

People were having wet dreams about Apple getting into the ereader market, pointing to the i:Phone/iTouch as examples of what Apple could do. Right. Won't happen. The ereader market simply isn't big enough to be worth Apple's while.

And while Apple may release a tablet, I'll be real surprised if reading ebooks is even mentioned by Apple as something you would do with it.

I expect an Apple tablet to be well designed, as in looking good as well as performing well. I expect it to have a superior UI for the intended purposes, because Apple has always been concerned with ease of use. I expect it to cost.

What about any of that would kill dedicated readers?

eInk is popular for two reasons. First, the biggest factor in battery life on a handheld device is usually trhe screen, and eInk screens use very little power. Unlike LED and LCD displays, they don't need to be contunualy refreshed to retain the image on screen. Second, a lot of people find extended reading a lot more comfortable on an eInk display.

I don't care how good Apple's tablet is. It won't address those issues.

I see an Apple tablet being quite successful. I don't see it affecting the dedicated reader market at all. The people a reader appeals to are not the ones Apple would make a tablet for.
______
Dennis

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I feel about the same. I love my PDA with a passion, and if I could get the same functions with a bigger screen, I'd be delighted. Not yet, however.

Yeah, I'm not a big PDA guy. I've had a Palm Tungsten E for years, but it's only real use is to keep both my home and office computer calendar's and contacts synched up. It's too clunky to enter text, so I seldom add contacts or events on the PDA itself. I occasionally add something directly to the Palm--say at a conference--or look at my calendar in a meeting, so it is semi-handy. But I mainly use the Palm Desktop Software on my office PC and laptop.

So I'd kind of like a phone that could do that as I carry my phone everywhere, but not necessarily my PDA since I don't always have my briefcase with me. And text entry would be better with a keyboard (real or virtual) than the crappy writing recognition on the Palm. Maybe more recent PDAs improved on that though.

Only thing that's kept me away from a smart phone is the data plans are too expensive for how much I'd use them. That and the iPhone not being on Verizon.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I see an Apple tablet being quite successful. I don't see it affecting the dedicated reader market at all. The people a reader appeals to are not the ones Apple would make a tablet for.

Agreed. This site shows pretty clearly that dedicated reader fans have little interest in giving up e-ink. For the millionth time, there's plenty of room in the market for both e-ink dedicated readers, tablets, PDAs, smart phones etc.

People need to quit talking about "kindle killers" and the demise of e-ink, as well as e-ink enthusiast needing to quit being so harsh on other devices that don't suit their needs as they do fit other's needs.

I disagree that Apple won't tout the reading ability of their tablet. They won't market it as a reader by any means, but they will tout reading e-books as one of the many things one can do with it.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Yeah, I'm not a big PDA guy. I've had a Palm Tungsten E for years, but it's only real use is to keep both my home and office computer calendar's and contacts synched up. It's too clunky to enter text, so I seldom add contacts or events on the PDA itself. I occasionally add something directly to the Palm--say at a conference--or look at my calendar in a meeting, so it is semi-handy. But I mainly use the Palm Desktop Software on my office PC and laptop.

Keeping stuff in sync has been one of my uses for my PDA. I synced at home and at the office with Outlook, and made my Outlook Contacts folder the basis of the Palm Address Book, and the Outlook Calendar synced with Datebook. Anything added in one place was replicated to the other when I hotsynced, and I had three copies of all of the data.

So I'd kind of like a phone that could do that as I carry my phone everywhere, but not necessarily my PDA since I don't always have my briefcase with me. And text entry would be better with a keyboard (real or virtual) than the crappy writing recognition on the Palm. Maybe more recent PDAs improved on that though.

Don't know. I can pretty much deal with Palm Graffiti/Graffiti2, and use the onscreen keyboard for the occasional correction. For any extensive text entry, I use a folding keyboard. I don't like thumbboards.

Only thing that's kept me away from a smart phone is the data plans are too expensive for how much I'd use them. That and the iPhone not being on Verizon.

I'm not bowled over by the iPhone, so it not being on Verizon is a non-issue here.

I'm keeping an eye on the Android device market however. Not for a smartphone, however. I have the Android SDK, and from what I could see, there was no reason what what it powered had to be a phone of any kind. There are apparently some development efforts to produce netbooks with ARM CPUs and Android as the OS, and those might be very interesting.
______
Dennis

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Don't know. I can pretty much deal with Palm Graffiti/Graffiti2, and use the onscreen keyboard for the occasional correction. For any extensive text entry, I use a folding keyboard. I don't like thumbboards.

Yeah I have zero need for extensive text entry on a PDA (that's what my desktop and laptop are for). So I'd never buy or carry around a folding keyboard (even with how tiny they are). All I ever do is put something in the contacts or calendar. So limited text--just still prefer doing it on the PC vs. dealing with the graffiti input.

I'm not bowled over by the iPhone, so it not being on Verizon is a non-issue here.

I wasn't at first, but I'm more impressed the more I play around with friends.

Great to have functional internet browsing on a phone I'd always have with me.

Being a city person, I'd use it a lot for looking up restaurants, getting directions, looking up movie show times etc. Even more so with all the apps like Zagat reviews etc. that you can get. GPS for getting directions when I'm walking (and thus don't have my GPS with me as it stays in the car) etc. Plus games for wasting time in waiting rooms (I'm a big gamer, but seldom take my Nintendo DS anywhere).

I'm also watching the Android as well, to see how it stacks up with the iPhone as time goes on.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Keeping stuff in sync has been one of my uses for my PDA. I synced at home and at the office with Outlook,...

That's what I've done with my Clie, but for some reason it stopped syncing with my work computer. I've tried reinstalling and all kids of stuff but for the life of me I can't get it to sync my calendar and contacts (which is was doing probably 6 months ago...) Not sure what changed....

[PhishStyx]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

Not everyone reads like you do, and a faster display and reader is very useful for some of those people.

I don't really see how you get from "other people have other needs" to screeching about e-ink being rubbish. Maybe that's just me, but I don't think it is.