Why no discussion of HTML as a book format?

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

There is a reasonable use case for a file format that includes text, audio and video in a standard form, so that a custom app doesn't have to be developed and installed for every separate publication.

Logically it would simply be a zip archive or similar with separate video files, audio files and other bits like an epub.
Are you sure there isn't already an app framework that does this?
I've actually been discussing unreal engine to do this. I know it's for 3D games, but you can make pages with text, images, sound, video and links. No need to have 3D or full game resources.

Certainly we used authoring programs for the PC that were simple to use over 20 years ago. PCs much lower spec than current phones. The resources were simply in subdirectories.


It's not an ebook. It's a multimedia app.

You'd want something a bit more complex, but simplified by gui, than any ebook / HTML editor or Indesign. Remember Macromedia?

[phillipgessert]

I’m reminded of multimedia CD-Roms from the 90s, which I’m fairly sure were supplanted by media-rich websites.

[pdurrant]

If readers supported it, I think the ePub 3 spec was working towards incorporating multi-media.

Personally, I'd rather the ePub consortium concentrated on improving the typography support, and left audio-visual media with text to another format.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

If readers supported it, I think the ePub 3 spec was working towards incorporating multi-media.

Personally, I'd rather the ePub consortium concentrated on improving the typography support, and left audio-visual media with text to another format.

Also most physical ereaders only support non-multimedia aspects of epub3. Is there more than one Android app with full epub 3?

Agree totally. The epub3 seems to be to support fixed layout (better done by a PDF for more people) and multimedia, which is better supported by app engines / multimedia authoring.

I'd have rather have seen the epub people support client side image maps (really simple HTML) and sections of the book only accessible via links.

I can't see the point at all of expanding epub to fixed layout or multimedia as neither of those work on eink and fixed layout needs a 10" or larger tablet or PC, in which case PDFs are better for fixed and multimedia is trivial.

As an experiment I plan to load up an early 1990s CD on the tablet as a file in Flash, running on DosBox. Just out of curiosity. I might obviously need to connect a mouse and keyboard via USB hub and USB2Go. I find the BT keyboards/mice poor compared to proprietary Wireless or USB versions.

About 13 years ago I ran the Adventure Game for PC Beneath a Steel Sky on DosBox on Symbian 60 on an Nokia phone with a small display and keypad. It didn't work any worse than on the PC.

Edit: I have a full Win 3.0 in real mode running on DosBox on Windows and Linux. About 2s to 4s loading time!

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by phillipgessert

I’m reminded of multimedia CD-Roms from the 90s, which I’m fairly sure were supplanted by media-rich websites.

Specifically MS even claimed they were ending Encarta due to the existence of Wikipedia.

So the only new multimedia left on PCs is the few game titles not relying on Steam, Epic, Microsoft etc.

Some of the old stuff installs fine on Linux WINE 32, but not on Win7 or Win10 64 bit. You need a VM with XP, or sometimes Win7 32 bit works.

[KevinH]

epub3 supports multimedia (video and audio) and lists them in their base resource types so no fallbacks needed. epub3 even allows remote resources for them with the correct manifest properties set. Most epub3 readers are based on either iBooks, ADE, or one of the WebKit derived engines (such as Readium), so supporting mp4, mp3, is not a big deal for them as they are a basic part of html5 available even without javascript. Calibre will support audio and video as will Sigil.

[pittendrigh]

The epub3 specification already supports the possibility of embedded audio and video. It isn't well supported by the various vendors yet, like Kindle, PlayBooks, Mobi etc. It is now already supported to some degree. But not well.

Because the epub3 spec supports embedded multimedia it is only a matter of time until the vendors do a better job supporting it.

In the meantime I use HTML5 on my website. I use video embedded in webpages (when needed). The HTML is generated by python and php. I wrote the codes. My pages act like an ebook. My customers like it. I teach boat building. The book like HTML format has been a big success.

I have NextPath, PrevPage, GotoLastRead, collapsible TOC. Searchable keyword index will happen this winter. My coding annual season generally starts in December.

So no. Previous comments about "This has to be a new app" are incorrect. Epub3 allows for it. It's coming.

[Quoth]

Not on eink.
If you are not on eink, a real app is hardly any more time to build and can be on Apple, Amazon, Google and other stores as well as versions for Mac OS, Windows and Linux laptops / tabletish things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPUB#Version_3.0.1
epub3 is nearly ten years old.

Code an app today rather than waiting for some epub3 app that will not be on all platforms and won't support multimedia on eink. Few eink ereaders have sound. Fewer have colour (which is poor and makes the text poorer contrast) and none sensibly do video.

It's not book like HTML, but paginated Multimedia (if it has pages). Books have pages. Scrolls are not books. If you have what you want on a website today it could be an app by next week on all platforms except eink.

[phillipgessert]

Originally Posted by pittendrigh

So no. Previous comments about "This has to be a new app" are incorrect. Epub3 allows for it. It's coming.

I wouldn’t hold your breath. EPUB specs and standards rightly strongly favor accessibility, portability and longevity; 3 things I personally don’t associate much with media-rich content.

[KevinH]

Kindle/Mobi is really the only holdout lacking audio/video support. Sigil, calibre, all Webkit/WebEngine based readers such as Readium (and its derivatives), ADE, iBooks, and anything claiming epub3 support should have no problems with audio and video. People seem fixated on Kindle because of Amazon's market power but as an ebook format Kindle is truly not open, and worse it is evolving away from html/epub based to more semi-fixed layout (nearly pdf-like KFX).

I find it hard to believe a Readium SDK based e-reader is not available for most phones, tablets, etc.

A quick search of the ios app store shows many epub3 compatible reading apps. Gitden being one that claimed more epub3 support and listed both ios and Android versions (as one example).

So audio and video are really only an issue for older e-readers that have not updated their firmware and of-couse Kindle/mobi ones. Almost all phones and tablets have reading apps that will support it.

Does anybody still use dedicated e-readers when phones and tablets are everywhere? My old Sony e-reader has been sitting in a drawer for over 5 years since reading on a tablet was simply a better and handier solution.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by KevinH

Does anybody still use dedicated e-readers when phones and tablets are everywhere? My old Sony e-reader has been sitting in a drawer for over 5 years since reading on a tablet was simply a better and handier solution.

I still read on dedicated e-ink e-readers because that is the best book reading experience for me.

My tablets sit unused for anything because I got weary of dealing with android. I used to read on a tablet in the dark until I got a kindle Voyage, but was never happy reading on a tablet.

My phone sits unused partly because its cellular radio no longer has towers to talk to, but mostly because its micro-USB port came loose. I tried reading on my phone, but didn't like it.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by KevinH

Kindle/Mobi is really the only holdout lacking audio/video support.

Not true because most ebooks are simply electronic versions of paper titles. That is the biggest market.

Multimedia is well served via apps, and 15 years ago to nearly 30 years ago, by PC/Mac programs. Such apps are easy to build for companies publishing multimedia and far better than devoting resources to epub3, where you don't know if the customer has a compatible ereader app, so you'd have to distribute a suitable app too.

Originally Posted by KevinH

Does anybody still use dedicated e-readers when phones and tablets are everywhere? My old Sony e-reader has been sitting in a drawer for over 5 years since reading on a tablet was simply a better and handier solution.

It's true that the majority ebooks are read on Apps. The majority of those used may implement some epub3, but not full multimedia.

Almost all ebooks sold have no multimedia, because the only reliable way to deliver that is an app.

Eink is still popular, still new models recently and a large market.

[Deskisamess]

Does anybody still use dedicated e-readers when phones and tablets are everywhere?

I sure do. I've a house full of iDevices, but the bulk of my pleasure reading is done on e-ink devices. I only use my tablets or smart phone for books that require color or large screens, or for the occasional library book not available in Kindle format.

I can't read on a backlit device in a dark bedroom, and I read at least an hour before I go to sleep, many nights 2 hours. I don't like reading on my iPads or iPhone all time, the experience just isn't as good as using a front lit e-ink device.

E-ink gave pleasure reading back to me. I'd sooner give up my iPad than my Kindles.

[KevinH]

Reading at night with built-in brightness adjustment and dark mode on an ipad pretty much does it for me. With epub3, Textbooks with audio and video (with external resource links to company servers too) work quite well. Regular books work just fine too. There is better assistive technology support in epub3 as well.

There really is no need for a whole separate app just to use html5, audio, video, and javascript, when an epub3 will handle all of those well and e-reader apps exist for every platform that the separate app would run on anyway.

So I guess to each their own!

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Personally, I'd rather the ePub consortium concentrated on improving the typography support, and left audio-visual media with text to another format.

How long had we dreamt this dream dear friend?

Originally Posted by KevinH

all Webkit/WebEngine based readers

you nailed the problem: E-readers shouldn't run on Webwhatever based engines but on a "what do I need to render a book engine.
see above

Originally Posted by KevinH

People seem fixated on Kindle

Nope. People wanting to read want read.

Originally Posted by KevinH

Does anybody still use dedicated e-readers when phones and tablets are everywhere? My old Sony e-reader has been sitting in a drawer for over 5 years since reading on a tablet was simply a better and handier solution.

Definitely. Unless I'm the last one using one.
I configured and thus handled a f* load of phones and tablets for my family over the years. Taking the weight/size ratio alone (with complete disregard for runtime) none of them was "better and handier" than any eink reader I handled.

Originally Posted by KevinH

Reading at night with built-in brightness adjustment and dark mode on an ipad pretty much does it for me.

Backlit displays pretty much do it for us.