Breaking news: Water is wet, study finds

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by Apache

I need phone and address information in case I need to contact customers. I still get people who think I want their information to sell.
I have had people who have forgotten that I have their repair. Without phone or address I can not contact them. I have even had people give me fake phone number and address. I know this because I have had a few that did not pick up their repairs. Phone number is fake or someone else's. Send a letter and have it returned as nonexistent. Some people are just weird.
Apache

Ironic that you're calling people who are concerned with their security weird while agreeing with those railing against companies to protect their security. These are people who, were they here, would very much be in the security over convenience camp. For the record, I'm not saying your reasons aren't valid, but then again I'm in the convenience over security camp.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by gmw

That big business has people so convinced their way is the only way that many people have given up.

People haven't given up, they just don't care and have never cared. Giving up implies they did care at some point in the past; I strongly doubt that the majority has ever done so. Life is just too short and full of bigger problems and concerns. I for one have no time or energy to worry about businesses knowing the color of my socks.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

You literally are quoting someone who, inadvertently, counters your claim. Small business collects data, and they use it. Your security has been compromised, and it didn't even take the internets to do it.[...]

Collecting the data required to provide a specific service is a far cry from what is happening with Google et al. AND I still expect even small business to take reasonable steps to protect what little data they did obtain. When I give business X certain details I am making a choice for my dealings with that business. It's a clear up front choice. If I discovered that the convenience store down the street was abusing my trust then I would not shop there. But as a rule such businesses don't do that (or not at scale, I'm sure some gossip happens). One of the reasons why they don't is that their customers expect better of them.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by gmw

^This.^ It is possible to have business collect only data needed to perform their service and then to discard or protect that data afterwards. But many people seem to have been convinced by big business that once they share their data with that business that the business is free to do whatever they want with it. That it's all or nothing. It does not have to be like that.

Software and online services can be written to offer privacy and security and convenience. Indeed there are some solutions growing out there (Vivaldi browser, ProtonMail and so on), but they struggle to help in an environment where the default is to collect private data.

That big business has people so convinced their way is the only way that many people have given up:

Their work is done. They have pacified the population so that most no longer expect any better. Great for them, it means that people believe them when they disclaim responsibility: "Aw shucks. You don't mind do you? After all, it was your choice to give it to us, you didn't have to do that."

It is possible for them to do better, but they will only bother to try if the demand is there.

Before the Internet, you had to give your info to the bank to get an account. You had to give your info to get a credit card. You had to give your info to your employer. You had to give your info to your doctor You had to give your info to the library to get a library card. You've had to give your info to lots of businesses to be able to live your life.

How is giving your info to Amazon, Apple, Google, and other big companies any different?

Personally, I've never had a problem with my info being out there. Once my bank contacted me and told me that one site where I used my card was hacked and they sent me a new card overnight. I was not inconvenienced at all.

I don't want to live in a cave. I just want to live my life and I do. If I was to be that paranoid about privacy, I may as well stop living.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by gmw

Collecting the data required to provide a specific service is a far cry from what is happening with Google et al. AND I still expect even small business to take reasonable steps to protect what little data they did obtain. When I give business X certain details I am making a choice for my dealings with that business. It's a clear up front choice. If I discovered that the convenience store down the street was abusing my trust then I would not shop there. But as a rule such businesses don't do that (or not at scale, I'm sure some gossip happens). One of the reasons why they don't is that their customers expect better of them.

You can expect whatever you’d like until the cows come home. It’s logical that Amazon et al would have stronger safeguards against that data being breached because they’re under more scrutiny and pressure than your local corner store, further they’ve got the resources and don’t keep your data on a computer protected by a door lock.

Interesting that you cling to your choice of doing business with those small businesses yet criticize others for making a choice to do business with Amazon et al. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and if you insist on holding your right to choose to give your information away to certain businesses so to should others be free to do so without you decrying their choices and demeaning them.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

[...] What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and if you insist on holding your right to choose to give your information away to certain businesses so to should others be free to do so without you decrying their choices and demeaning them.

You are quite right that everyone is free to to share their data with whoever they want. Even if the market was different this basic fact would remain true.

And whatever I said or implied about giving up, JSWolf's earlier post suggesting it is "no win" is probably an accurate conclusion. The market has spoken, the business models have formed and been proven successful. Arguments about right or wrong or necessity are largely just noise around this central fact.

Despite that, I remain confident we could have pretty much the same level of useful technological innovation without requiring the loss of privacy. (Note that privacy is about control, merely sharing the data with a particular entity is not necessarily loss of privacy, losing control of the data is.) There are solutions out there that prove users can retain control in at least some contexts, which is why I made the earlier comments about people being fooled into thinking they have no choice. Some choices exist, and if the incentives existed there would be more, but so far the market does not favour them.

About the only other thing that might adjust the balance now would be legislation.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by gmw

Despite that, I remain confident we could have pretty much the same level of useful technological innovation without requiring the loss of privacy. (Note that privacy is about control, merely sharing the data with a particular entity is not necessarily loss of privacy, losing control of the data is.)

But that's just one opinion on what privacy is about. One clearly not held by everyone (consumer and corporation alike). I can state with equal authority that no one has ever had the level of control over their privacy that many expect/require mega-corporations to suddenly give them by default.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by gmw

(Note that privacy is about control, merely sharing the data with a particular entity is not necessarily loss of privacy, losing control of the data is.) There are solutions out there that prove users can retain control in at least some contexts, which is why I made the earlier comments about people being fooled

If you think you're still in control when you share the data with any entity (assuming you mean corporate entity, and not, like, your cat) then it sounds like it's you who have been fooled.

It's all just a question of who you choose to trust, and how much.
"Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

[ApK]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

But that's just one opinion on what privacy is about. One clearly not held by everyone (consumer and corporation alike)

Quite. I view privacy as my right to NOT share things. Not, at it's core, control over what other people do once I chose to give up that right. That's more a matter of trust, confidentiality and contracts.

[cfrizz]

:r ofl:

Practically nothing is private, your job MAY spy on you through the pc/laptop that they let you use. Anytime you purchase something online others MAY use that data to send you emails for other stuff to purchase. SO WHAT? You hit delete and move on!

If you are that paranoid, then go buy yourself an island and be a non communicating hermit!

So long as people use common sense, life will tick along just fine and it is highly doubtful that someone will steal your identity. Why? Because the world does NOT revolve around you.

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

All right! Who stole my popcorn?

Was it you?

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

Next time, get extra butter

:r ofl:

[gmw]

Originally Posted by ApK

If you think you're still in control when you share the data with any entity (assuming you mean corporate entity, and not, like, your cat) then it sounds like it's you who have been fooled.

It's all just a question of who you choose to trust, and how much.
"Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

There are layers to this. Take a look at the way Vivaldi implements syncing (not to mention how it limits its tracking, or how it does page translations). Or how other services, too, provide encrypted storage that the service itself does not have the key to; even JotForm offers a method to achieve this via public key encryption (it's not very good yet, but it's a start). At the other end look at reputational options (eg: Duck Duck Go, StartPage and some encrypted email solutions) that, yes, require trust - and so you might choose not to offer them your deepest darkest secrets - but then you're not losing anything here, it's simply a different agreement to the one you're used to being offered. In between those are combinations and variations on the theme - and probably some I have yet to see - but all based on the assumption that your data remains under your control as far as that is possible.

I'm not trying to claim it is all perfect, but real options do exist to achieve much more than people seem to be assuming, and they would get better rapidly if there was a greater demand for them. If we demand more of our service providers then they can provide it.

[cfrizz]

What I find truly ironic is that you are worried about Amazon etc. but no one gives a thought about all the other places that demand your private info. Your place of employment HR Dept, Payroll depts. has to have this info about you if you want to get hired. Social Security Admn, IRS, The State treasury that you live in. Hospitals will need all this info for billing purposes.

I have dealt with private info all day long in all the jobs that I have had, and guess what so do thousands of other people who work in these kinds of depts.

Guess what? I couldn't careless, I'm too busy trying to process my job to care about any of the info that I have access to!

Again so many people have access to our private info that can actually do damage with it, and would probably never be caught for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time it boggles the mind. But nobody cares because again no one is really that important to care about their info.

There are also so many checks and balances and warnings in place, that it is really hard to get away with data theft.

[gmw]

Who said no one gives a thought about the other places? I just don't complain here because I figure most people won't be interested in my ongoing arguments about payroll and tax reporting in Australia. I can start it you like.

[crossi]

As long as no one is searching my documents on my hard drive I don't care. If after googling wool coats I start seeing ads for winter coats on the web, I don't care and find it convenient. I might see one I like.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by gmw

As I noted earlier, for me privacy is not so much about my personal need as it is the social impact. I want a society where privacy is the default, not one where privacy is a constant struggle.

Well put. No Echo or Google speakers in our house. If technology can be abused and privacy compromised by corporations or the government, it will be. Getting closer and closer to the teleprompters of Nineteen Eighty-Four — and that book was written in 1949, long before this technology actually existed.

Or even in 1972 when Larry Norman released "The Great American Novel," with this verse...

Well my phone is tapped and my lips are chapped from whispering through the fence,
You know every move I make, or is that just coincidence?
Will you try to make my way of life a little less like jail,
If I promise to make tapes and slides and send them through the mail?

And, no, I'm not paranoid and I don't have anything to hide. I just believe in privacy. As I usually respond to (what I consider) the vacuous "what do you have to hide?" argument — would you have written your love letters on postcards? (For those who still remember what letters and postcards were.)