Under new Overdrive model users will no longer choose a file format, just 'ebook'

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I don't really see the point in worrying about this. I would think that if the book comes only as a pdf it is because it needs the fixed formatting, and you wouldn't find it as epub or mobi anyway.

Hopefully that's becoming true.

The buyer for the Free Library of Philadelphia told me that some books that are available commercially in all the major formats are sometimes only available as PDF's to libraries (we're talking regular novels here).

My local library only buys books available as ePub's at this point and will not acquire PDFs.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

The buyer for the Free Library of Philadelphia told me that some books that are available commercially in all the major formats are sometimes only available as PDF's to libraries (we're talking regular novels here).

My local library only buys books available as ePub's at this point and will not acquire PDFs.

So most books aren't available for you. Why doesn't the library want pdfs?

[toddos]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

So most books aren't available for you. Why doesn't the library want pdfs?

Because PDF is not a valid ebook format. Also, perhaps they actually care about their users.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

So most books aren't available for you. Why doesn't the library want pdfs?

I don't know about "most books", they have over 12,000 ePubs and have only been doing ebooks through overdrive for about a year. That's a pretty good catalog IMO.


I guess they do have about 11,000 books through NetLibrary, some of those might be PDF, I'm not sure. I know at least some are online only.

[carld]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I don't really see the point in worrying about this. I would think that if the book comes only as a pdf it is because it needs the fixed formatting, and you wouldn't find it as epub or mobi anyway.

Yeah, you'd think, but that's unfortunately not true. I've seen way too many novels with no special formatting only available as PDFs.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by toddos

Because PDF is not a valid ebook format. Also, perhaps they actually care about their users.

You keep repeating this. But it's not true.

PDF is a perfect ebook format, currently more capable at presenting complex layouts than any other format I know of.

The problem is that most current devices are incapable of taking advantage of most current PDFs.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a hardware race to the bottom, with the same 6" screens competing mostly on price. I guess it's the hardware answer to the mass-paperback, aimed at readers who care nothing about presentation.

I hope as technology improves, we'll see devices capable of presenting hard-cover quality layout on hardcover-sized screens -- in the range of 11"-12".

If there were such devices, I personally would buy nothing but PDF books.

To each their own, of course, but PDF is an ebook format.

[vaughnmr]

Originally Posted by Sonist

You keep repeating this. But it's not true.

PDF is a perfect ebook format, currently more capable at presenting complex layouts than any other format I know of.

The problem is that most current devices are incapable of taking advantage of most current PDFs.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a hardware race to the bottom, with the same 6" screens competing mostly on price. I guess it's the hardware answer to the mass-paperback, aimed at readers who care nothing about presentation.

I hope as technology improves, we'll see devices capable of presenting hard-cover quality layout on hardcover-sized screens -- in the range of 11"-12".

If there were such devices, I personally would buy nothing but PDF books.

To each their own, of course, but PDF is an ebook format.

Wrong. PDF is usually fixed for an 8.5"x11" display, and it really doesn't have a way to display properly on a smaller display. That's the big problem with pdf, it won't display or reflow properly on a smaller ereader. Don't confuse the issue, we need a universal ebook format, and pdf is not the one at present.

[carld]

PDF is a horrible format for most ebooks.

[toddos]

Originally Posted by vaughnmr

Wrong. PDF is usually fixed for an 8.5"x11" display, and it really doesn't have a way to display properly on a smaller display. That's the big problem with pdf, it won't display or reflow properly on a smaller ereader. Don't confuse the issue, we need a universal ebook format, and pdf is not the one at present.

This. PDF is only "perfect" for designers stuck in a paper mindset. Sorry, you don't get to have pixel-perfect layouts with ebooks. That's entirely not the point of the format.

I will grant that today PDF is somewhat better for a very specific subset of non-fiction books, those that are layout or data heavy. But most of that goes right back to the paper mindset. You think you need tables and sidebars and whatever to layout your data, but you'd be wrong. You can provide links, interactive content, and more with a proper, no-PDF ebook format (this is not fully there yet, but both iBooks and Nook Color support richer, more interactive books and it's just a matter of time until standards get enhanced and support becomes universal). And yet there are plenty of technical books that can make the epub format work for them, like A Book Apart (also available in PDF because there are luddites who wouldn't buy it otherwise).

PDF for narrative literature, fiction or non, is an insult. PDF for anything else is at best a lazy cop-out.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by vaughnmr

Wrong. PDF is usually fixed for an 8.5"x11" display, and it really doesn't have a way to display properly on a smaller display....

Uhm, no. You are wrong. PDFs can reflow to display on smaller screens just fine. Do a search for "tagged PDF."

Originally Posted by toddos

This. PDF is only "perfect" for designers stuck in a paper mindset. Sorry, you don't get to have pixel-perfect layouts with ebooks. That's entirely not the point of the format....

Right, and you are the guy of the future, where the lowest common denominator rules. Reminds me of how DOS nerds talked about GUI.

If you are happy with mass market paperbacks, fine. But stop saying that hard-cover books are not books. PDFs, I mean....

Once the affordable hardware comes, some people will demand some better looking content, too. Fixed layout pages may not be everyone's cup of tea, but neither are designer clothes.

To each their own.

[toddos]

You speak of lowest common denominator, yet that's exactly what PDF is -- it's the simplest way to bring a PDF to market, because pretty much every printed book becomes a PDF at some point during its printing process. It's the least amount of work that publishers could do and still tick the "provided an ebook" checkbox.

Ebooks are to paper books as the web is to desktop publishing. The old format was a fixed size, and designers were able to place their elements exactly where they wanted them because the size of their paper would never change. Control was in the hands of the publishers, because their output was static. The new format is fluid and dynamic and as a result designers no longer get to have pixel-perfect control. The reader is in control, where he can choose where to read the content (on a phone or a 1366x768 laptop or a 1920x1080 large screen, in a maximized browser window or one that's tall and narrow or one that's short and wide) and even how that content looks (font overrides, custom stylesheets, user scripts, ad blockers, etc).

Are you suggesting that we should all have multiple readers? A 6" device for "mass market paperbacks", a 12" device for "hard-cover books", a 20" device for coffee table books, etc? You're limiting yourself by your adherence to the old ways. If you want a 12" device, great. Buy one when you can. I'm happy with my 6" and 4.3" (and previously 3.5") readers, and there's no reason I shouldn't be able to read the exact same content and get just as much out of it as you would on a larger device. Except that adherence to the old ways, that you have to lay out things just so, and if you don't have an A4 page to work with you can't do it.

DOS vs. GUI is a ridiculous comparison here (and you're putting us on the wrong sides, anyway -- I'm advocating the future, aka GUIs, while you're stuck in the past, aka DOS). I've already given you a better bad analogy with web vs. magazines. If you can't see it, think back to web pages from the 90s, with their "Best viewed at 1024x768" buttons, or even early-2000s flash-based web sites that would not resize the flash interface even if you changed the browser's size. Why did they have to tell us what resolution to view their page at? Because they tried to put paper on the web. We've moved past that, and as soon as we move past trying to put paper into ebooks I'll finally shut up about PDF not being a valid ebook format. Because PDF as an ebook format will finally be dead.

[Sil_liS]

My 9.7" ereader does a great job of reading pdf files. Beside the formatting, one of the advantages is the fact that the page number has a meaning, and if you need it as a reference, then pdf is the way to go.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

My 9.7" ereader does a great job of reading pdf files. Beside the formatting, one of the advantages is the fact that the page number has a meaning, and if you need it as a reference, then pdf is the way to go.

Kindle page numbers also have meaning.
Even the obnoxious Adobe epub page numbers are fixed.

Pdf is a digital microfiche gussied up to try to pass as an ebook.
It has its uses...
...when there is nothing better available.
But it really behooves the publisher to make something better available.
It's not that hard and with epub3 there will be no excuses not to.

The next step for Overdrive is to ditch pdf files altogether.
Maybe next year...

[EowynCarter]

Uhm, no. You are wrong. PDFs can reflow to display on smaller screens just fine. Do a search for "tagged PDF."

But you loose the one advantage pdf have, ie providing a fixed layout and allowing for manual formating.

ePub allows for all the needed complexity IMHO.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Kindle page numbers also have meaning.
Even the obnoxious Adobe epub page numbers are fixed.

How does the page number thing really work? Does it hold across different devices? When you increase font size and modify the margins, what is the meaning of a page?