Mobipocket - the end of an era

[seajewel]

Originally Posted by Hitch

With all due respect...we don't have a "worldwide standard" in ePUBs. I wish we did; I was just lamenting this lack the other day on another thread. ePUBs that are gorgeous on ADE don't work properly on iPad; ePUBs with the xpgt don't work thither; dropcaps that work in ADE don't work on Nook; dropcaps that are stunning in Nook for PC are horrific and displaced on the NookColor. The steps you have to take to ensure that Nook doesn't automatically hyphenate headers wherever it runs out of room (we don't need no stinkin' syllables!) bastardizes any shot you have of using a BFL-smallcaps combo for any type of heading. iBooks ignores WHATEVER CSS Apple chooses--and if you don't like it, tough. Sony's readers don't recognize justification, for about 80% of them, so if you have a client that wants a fully-justified book, you have to make an LRF for them.

With all due respect.. I didn't say we have a worldwide standard in epub. and I'm not asking for uniform formatting in epubs. I get that you're frustrated that different readers display things differently or don't give us enough customization, etc. There is the problem that Nook uses a different DRM system as well. But when it comes down to it, I was clearly complaining about the fact that I can't buy an Amazon book and load it onto my Sony Reader. Of course as pointed out before this is true of epub on Kindle as well, but for the most part the major ebook sellers other than Amazon appear to me to have adopted epub. This means that the holdout is Amazon, not epub-using companies. If Amazon went with epub, then we would have at least, a fairly world-wide standard format.

[HPG]

I hear your pain, Hitch; I had no idea things were in such a mess. I guess, though, I'm with seajewel, at least in a very simplistic sense. I'm just happy I can read books; I'm not too fussed about the niceties of layout even though I can well understand why authors and publishers might be. For me, the fact that so many books are available in ePub, and that so many readers (both devices, and apps for, e.g., smartphones) can cope with ePub even though the rendering of the text is sometimes a bit eccentric, has simplified life enormously.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by seajewel

With all due respect.. I didn't say we have a worldwide standard in epub. and I'm not asking for uniform formatting in epubs. I get that you're frustrated that different readers display things differently or don't give us enough customization, etc. There is the problem that Nook uses a different DRM system as well. But when it comes down to it, I was clearly complaining about the fact that I can't buy an Amazon book and load it onto my Sony Reader. Of course as pointed out before this is true of epub on Kindle as well, but for the most part the major ebook sellers other than Amazon appear to me to have adopted epub. This means that the holdout is Amazon, not epub-using companies. If Amazon went with epub, then we would have at least, a fairly world-wide standard format.

What you did say was:

When I think about how if Amazon didn't go the way it did, epub would likely be the worldwide standard, and we could buy books at any store and use them on any of our readers.. it really makes me a little sad.

My response was simply this: that we don't have a world-wide ePUB standard NOW that is being respected by the retailers. I don't think Amazon has anything to do with that. In fact, at least Amazon picked a format (bought a format, whatever) that is designed to deliver text--not the next flashy-thingie. It's become increasingly clear that the larger retailers are deliberately veering away from the standard(s) of ePUB in an attempt to force users to read THEIR books on THEIR platforms. B&N doesn't want you reading NookBooks on your iPad or Smartphone, and (to a much lesser extent, because Apple doesn't give a rat's ass what you do once you've bought their device[s]), Apple knows that its so-called "enhanced ePubs" (those mutant cross-bred ePUBs with video and audio) can't be used on other platforms.

The fact that the retailers have, to my eye, very deliberately introduced "quirks" (to put it politely) that render the books less-enjoyable on other devices is no accident. The idea that ePUB will ever be a "worldwide standard" to which Apple or the others will adhere is, as I said, wishful thinking. I understand what you're saying; you can put up with the formatting quirks as you move from one device to the other...but my point was that those "quirks" will become an ever-widening gap (and have, increasingly, over the past year alone) until they essentially become proprietary-ish ("Apple ePUB" "Nook ePUB" "Sony WHATEVER").

Most authors, whether DIY or pay-for-play, generally find a way to put their books up on some type of ePUB platform, whether it is NOOK's PubIt!, or Smashwords. It's not a perfect solution, but generally speaking, you can find a lot of books that are available on Amazon elsewhere in other formats. If you can't, I strenuously recommend that you write the author (...and then send them to ME!!!, bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha).

Seriously, though--when we make a book, we make it in both formats (and sometimes, as mentioned, 3, or even 4), so that the author can reach out across format lines and make their books available. Many don't avail themselves of the publishing opportunites for ePUB, not due to formatting issues, per se, but because getting their ePUBs on platforms other than Nook (Barnes & Noble) is a nightmare. To get on Diesel, Kobo (alleged to be changing at year's end), Apple, Books on Board, etc., generally requires a publisher or a distributor; they don't take single-book authors or self-pubbing or Indy Authors. Not to mention needing a $125 ISBN (here in the US). UK and CAN authors can't publish to Nook, because they don't have social security numbers and US bank accounts.

So their alternative is to a) buy an ISBN and b) use the services of a distributor, which at the cheapest is $50 plus 5% of the ups. If you can't find a book you want on your device/platform/retailer, I'd recommend that you investigate their distro and intake practices, and email THEM to accept self-published authors, because that's where Amazon rewrote the book, regardless of format; making worldwide distribution REAL for the self-published author on a platform that had millions upon milions of visitors, unlike SW.

Just my $.02, and worth what you paid for it.

[seajewel]

I still think my post stands. I don't disagree with you on the formatting issue, in fact I made a post in the General Discussion section a while back asking where people find the best-formatted ebooks, and was informed that all epubs sold everywhere are the same, and it's just the device showing things differently. I don't know if that's true, as in the same book's sample from different bookstores I found dropcaps and embedded fonts in Nook app and better scene spacing in Google ebooks vs. Kobo, etc. but maybe what you are saying is the same thing.. it's the device/application/software that renders the same epub differently. In that case especially, I still think my point stands. Yes it sucks that each bookstore's app will display things differently, some better than others, but at least you can buy an epub (setting aside the issue of B&N's DRM) and read it on any device except for Kindle. so if Amazon were to go epub, at least there would be uniform format, if not uniform formatting.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by seajewel

With all due respect.. I didn't say we have a worldwide standard in epub.

[...]
If Amazon went with epub, then we would have at least, a fairly world-wide standard format.

Umm, it sort of does sound like you are saying that.

[seajewel]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Umm, it sort of does sound like you are saying that.

I believe that Amazon has a greater share of the U.S. market, and is the only bookseller (I know of) that is keeping a standard other than epub alive, and has the clout to do so, such that there is no worldwide standard format yet. Maybe I'm using the wrong wording, maybe I should be saying format. Regardless, I'm sorry, but I don't see what's so contentious about me saying that if Amazon were to go with epub (like Barnes and noble, Kobo, Sony, Google, etc.) that we would have one format-epub- that is readable on all devices.

I *get* that formatting varies by application/software. But my point isn't that. Yes, I would like better-formatted ebooks in general. but I'm talking about mobi vs epub, not epub displays dropscaps in Nook and doesn't in Kobo, or whatever it is that people think my post should be about.

ETA: and i started with all due respect mainly to mimic the post that quoted my original post. In general I find it a somewhat condescending way to respond to someone, especially when you are missing their point and trying to make the discussion about something else entirely.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Umm, it sort of does sound like you are saying that.

No, it doesn't. Because there is an "if". For example saying that if it's 1 AM it would be dark outside doesn't mean that it's dark outside now.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by seajewel

Regardless, I'm sorry, but I don't see what's so contentious about me saying that if Amazon were to go with epub (like Barnes and noble, Kobo, Sony, Google, etc.) that we would have one format-epub- that is readable on all devices.

Nope.
Amazon would use their own DRM.
Apple use their own DRM.
B&N use their own DRM, but do share it, although many choose not to support it.
ePub vs mobi doesn't affect that.

Underlying file type, yes. So perhaps it is a naming issue.

[seajewel]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

No, it doesn't. Because there is an "if". For example saying that if it's 1 AM it would be dark outside doesn't mean that it's dark outside now.

Thank you. I am getting a little frustrated. and murraypaul, yes, DRM is another issue, but many epub-sellers choose Adobe DRM epub (the normal flavor, not the B&N flavor) which is readable across all devices. You are likely right that Amazon may use its own DRM, which would render my point essentially moot, but it may not. and I still don't see why you were nitpicking my choice of words, which was not directly contradictory, unless you read "standard" to mean something other than epub or mobi format, which is very clearly what I was referring to. Your point here is valid but I found your other post to add nothing to the discussion.

[JSWolf]

When the time comes for eBook DRM to go away, B&N's ePub will be standard ePub. Amazon & Apple will then be the only two holdouts.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

When the time comes for eBook DRM to go away, B&N's ePub will be standard ePub. Amazon & Apple will then be the only two holdouts.

I damn sure hope not.
A DRM system that requires me to tell any 3rd party reading software my credit card number? What idiot thought that was a good idea?

[dwig]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

When the time comes for eBook DRM to go away, B&N's ePub will be standard ePub. Amazon & Apple will then be the only two holdouts.

Those statements are self-contradictory.

"When the times comes for eBook DRM to go away" mean it goes away, period, no holdouts. If anyone is a holdout then DRM has, by definition, not gone away.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

I damn sure hope not.
A DRM system that requires me to tell any 3rd party reading software my credit card number? What idiot thought that was a good idea?

That credit card DRM system was in place long before eink was an idea. eReader used it. eReader is mostly dead and being kept alive (on a respirator) by Fictionwise.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by dwig

Those statements are self-contradictory.

"When the times comes for eBook DRM to go away" mean it goes away, period, no holdouts. If anyone is a holdout then DRM has, by definition, not gone away.

You missed the point entirely. iBooks is not standard ePub and Amazon doesn't use any sort of ePub. So when the day comes that DRM goes away, B&N's eBooks become standard ePub with Apple and Amazon not being ePub.

[idraw22]

The mobipocket store is closing? But I get books from there. I dunno why Amazon is closing it, not like it's competition for ebooks. I would prefre to go there INSTEAD of Amazon.