Amazon removed books from my Kindle

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by haertig

It wasn't a claim. It was a joke. I didn't expect literalists to get it.

That is one of the few good things about emojis used as indicators to help those who read what is written as it was written. What in your post was supposed to inform the rest of us that it was intended as a joke?

Sorry but at this point in time, I am getting rather tired of those who seem to feel that no matter what they post, if anyone questions it, it can be excused by saying that it was intended to be a joke, that everyone else is just taking their posts too literally and that somehow it is a lack in the other person.

As has been said multiple times and by multiple people, if you have to explain it…it probably wasn’t funny.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by DNSB

if you have to explain it…it probably wasn’t funny.

Well, not to the person you had to explain it to at least.

Since literalism and a sense of humor are pretty much 180 degree opposites, there is no point in trying to explain jokes to a literalist. It's like trying to explain normal conversational dialogue and banter to a debater.

[Martinoptic]

I’m a literalist but I like a joke. However, some “jokes” aren’t easy to spot. Emojis are very occasionally helpful.

We appear to be off topic.

[issybird]

Moderator Notice
Back on topic, please. No parting shots. You can always take it to PM if you need the last word. Good luck with that.

[Lutraa]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Yes.

Also technically it's a crime in many countries to remove / delete files from someone else's system/device/computer.

And a good reason to buy any ereader is the tens of thousands public domain texts out of print.
They promised after the Orwell debacle that they'd never delete ebooks again, even if they had be wrongly sold. The copyright issue was up to Amazon to resolve (and pay compensation on), not the customers. ...

Even if it's a mistake, that will only be a mitigating circumstance in deciding damages. They are absolutely breaking the law in many countries. The "value" of mitigation decreases with each day they let this automated "bug" continue.

Bringing this thread back on topic, here's my latest update: From last December through last week, I had an extensive conversation with Amazon about this issue via email. I had contacted the upper level managers about the issue, explaining that I keep my Paperwhite offline most of the time, but had lost all sideloaded content each time I connected the device to their servers, for a total of three mass deletion events from last summer through December 2023.

Their executive escalations dept. assigned a troubleshooter to my case. Note that Amazon never acknowledged that it knows that has been happening to anyone -- they consistently denied that, blaming the end user (me). To shoot down their denials, I sent them links to this thread and also several in Reddit subs, but they never mentioned having visited thses forums.

I sent them device logs. I told them the names of the deleted books (Project Gutenberg and also some content I wrote myself).

They asked me the same questions over and over and I gave them the same answers over and over. Finally, they told me they could only help if I agreed to sync my device with their servers so they could watch what was happening. I told them to go pound sand, as I wasn't about to lose all my sideloaded content, reading progress, and notes for the fourth time in six months.

If anyone here wants to try contacting them, good email addresses for senior managers can be found on Elliott's (travel and consumer protection journalist) website. Or, I could post them here if that's allowed. If you contact Amazon, let them know a Kindle user from Alaska tried to convince them that her experience wasn't a one-off due to user error. I could provide my Amazon case number if needed. PM me for these and other details.

My Paperwhite is now offline permanently, which only really matters if I am traveling without my laptop and want to add a new book.

[Quoth]

Typical corporate behaviour.

[Lutraa]

I forgot to mention that instead of expecting me to serve as an uncompensated guinea pig, and risk having my sideloaded content deleted once again, I suggested that Amazon's trouble shooters use one of the many Paperwhites they must have lying around to do the experiment themselves.

Crickets.

So either they have zero intellectual curiosity, or they have been instructed to deny, deny, deny.

[jlinear]

Originally Posted by Lutraa

I told them to go pound sand, as I wasn't about to lose all my sideloaded content, reading progress, and notes for the fourth time in six months.

I also lost content (all Amazon purchased ebooks side loaded via USB) from both my Scribe and Paperwhite. Had the same reaction - they can "pound sand." If they have no interest in fixing the problem I have no interest in using a Kindle ereader. Sold my Scribe which could not be jailbroken. Jailbroke my Paperwhite and now use KOReader exclusively (offline). Kobo is a more than acceptable alternative.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Typical corporate behaviour.

Still casts doubt on their claim of "most customer-centric company", but for a case of prolonged massive organizational malfeasance see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...Office_scandal
Most cases still outstanding.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Lutraa

Finally, they told me they could only help if I agreed to sync my device with their servers so they could watch what was happening.

This sounds like a reasonably good faith effort on their part. I was an electronics/computer engineer before I retired, and yeah, this is the same strategy I would have taken for initial troubleshooting. In order to troubleshoot something, you have to be able to reproduce the problem. Watching things unfold in real time - by watching server actions, logs, etc. - would be a goldmine in troubleshooting.

You didn't want to help them. I can understand why you wouldn't want to chance having to repopulate your Kindle after their testing might result in you content being deleted. But when troubleshooting a destructive problem, sometimes you have to let the destruction unfold while you watch it in order to figure out what is happening.

It's not really fair to claim that they refused to do anything and instead went for deny, deny, deny. Clearly they did not. If you actually told them to go pound sand and that you didn't want to be an uncompensated guinea pig, I can see why they didn't pursue working with you further.

I am no fan of Amazon and how long this problem has reportedly been going on. It sounds like you got pretty far and did good penetration into the engineering group - quite an accomplishment in itself - but when they (finally) made an offer to help, you shut them out. I'm not saying you should have helped them (that would entail negative outcomes for you probably), but you can't say they didn't try.

When you are talking to an engineer, they are not going to know the first thing about compensating angry customers. That's just not a part of the engineering job. We know nothing about that part of the business - what can be done, what can't be done. I would never expect an engineer, or an engineering manager, to offer you compensation. That's a totally different department and group of people. Compensation is something that would have to be worked later. If you demanded it from an engineer, I would expect you to be dropped like a hot potato. That's what I would have done (no offense intended). They just aren't going to know how to handle you.

[Lutraa]

I'm a scientist, so pretty familiar with hypothesis testing. That's why I asked Amazon why it hadn't performed its own experiments to see if they could replicate a problem that was first reported about four years ago. E.g. if the problem is due to device clock drift, as some have speculated, surely their engineers could have detected this.

I suspect the real issue is that they force the cloud account's version of which files should be on the device to override the local version's, although why this doesn't seem to be happening to devices that are not left in airplane mode for significant periods is unclear. In any case they really shouldn't be doing this to a device that can be used as a (rather expensive) external SSD, not just to read content that comes from Amazon.

And I didn't expect the IT person to give me compensation. Amazon executives were my initial contacts and I cc'ed them on all my responses. I did not ask for money or for a new device, just that they cease erasing my copyrighted content from a device I own.

Far from being unhelpful, I explained the situation in detail, provided a list of the deleted documents, including file types and approximate restoration dates from last year prior to the latest wipe, generated and uploaded device log files, and pointed the company to numerous other accounts of this happening when they claimed I was the only Kindle owner to have reported it.

My initial contact with Amazon about this issue was in mid-December last year. Had they added non-Amazon content to a Paperwhite back then, taken it offline for the next few months, and then synced it, they could well have seen that I was not hallucinating. The fact that they didn't tells me they either already know what's going on and don't want to change it, or that they just don't care. In either case I won't be buying any new Kindles or content from them any time soon.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Lutraa

Far from being unhelpful, I explained the situation in detail, provided a list of the deleted documents, including file types and approximate restoration dates from last year prior to the latest wipe, generated and uploaded device log files, and pointed the company to numerous other accounts of this happening when they claimed I was the only Kindle owner to have reported it.

I find it rather humourous that my contact with Amazon echoed the "only Kindle owner to have reported it".

Originally Posted by Lutraa

My initial contact with Amazon about this issue was in mid-December last year. Had they added non-Amazon content to a Paperwhite back then, taken it offline for the next few months, and then synced it, they could well have seen that I was not hallucinating. The fact that they didn't tells me they either already know what's going on and don't want to change it, or that they just don't care. In either case I won't be buying any new Kindles or content from them any time soon.

We Don't Care. We Don't Have To. We're Amazon. Apologies to Lily Tomlin.

Fortunately for me, my Kindle is a secondary device. Otherwise, I would be extremely unhappy.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by DNSB

I find it rather humourous that my contact with Amazon echoed the "only Kindle owner to have reported it".

That statement is probably listed on their script for dealing with customers reporting this problem.

[haertig]

Sometimes you find a variety of employees at a company. Some that will help, and some that would not hand you a bucket of water if you were on fire. I have had two instances of this in my trials and tribulations with companies.

The first was with a satellite TV company. My DVR was mysteriously deleting content that I had recorded (somewhat similar to the Kindle problem we are discussing). Normal tech support channels, yeah, it was the same old "we've never heard of this happening before". They didn't seem interested in pursuing the problem. But one time, I got a hold of a tech support person who actually seemed to care. They asked, "would you be willing to allow one of our engineers into your house to troubleshoot directly on your DVR?" My first thought was, "Yeah right, you're really gonna send an engineer out to my place!" But I said, sure, send someone out. The next day I indeed got a phone call from an engineer and we arranged a time for him to come out. He brought his laptop and plugged that into the back of my DVR. Right into that USB port that they say doesn't do anything, and is just there for future expansion. Yeah, that one. After a while digging around in my DVR via this laptop link, the guy said, "I think I see what might be happening". He thanked me for letting him come out and we exchanged good-byes. My DVR never deleted a recording (on it's own accord) again. I do not know if this was pure coincidence, or if some fix was added to the routine firmware upgrades they do based on that engineer troubleshooting at my place. My point is that I eventually ran into employees who DID care, after having to fight my way through other employees who did not care. That's the way it goes sometimes.

The second instance was with a new lawn mover I bought. The thing never ran right. It was a high end model. The dealer I bought it from was zero help. Almost laughing at me when I pointed out the problems with the mower. So I tried the trick of calling the manufacturer directly. You look up their main published phone number, and then dial other numbers that are one or two digits off from that main number. Often times you will ruin into their fax number, but often times you will run into one of their high level execs. I think it's an ego thing - they want to have a phone number/extension that is right off the main number as some kind of corporate status symbol. I saw this over and over when configuring phone systems for companies, back when I was involved in that. So ... I ended up talking with one of the company VP's. He was aghast at hearing how I had been treated. He offered me a new mower from their line, but I would have to wait 3 months since they had switched their production line over to building a different mower brand. Every bit as high end as the line I bought, apparently this company owns and manufactures several different customer brands. He said if I didn't want to wait the three months for the brand I bought to go back into production, I could have any mower I wanted from one of their other lines. You should have seen the dealers face when I rolled in my poorly working mower and told him that the company had shipped me this new replacement that he was holding for a customer (me!) The look on his face was worth the effort I had expended to get a replacement mower.

My point in bringing this up being, you can't always call an entire company a dog because of the actions of some of its employees. Think about what it would be like to be one of the techs at a company responding to incoming customer calls. A zillion each day. Most all of them angry. It would be a horrible job. I can see them lumping their entire customer base into one obnoxious group, same as we customers lump all their employees into one unhelpful group. Calling in and then telling them to pound sand and that you weren't going to be an uncompensated guinea pig probably got you lumped into the obnoxious customer group, even though you felt yourself to be in a different group.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by jhowell

That statement is probably listed on their script for dealing with customers reporting this problem.

Meaning that they have no intention of fixing it...