Question regarding online backup service

[moz]

Personally I use removable firewire disks for my backups, because they're reasonably fast (as external disks go) and widely supported. My experiences with eSATA have not been great, but that would be a better option if it was available. With my setup I have up to date copies in three places - on the RAID5 array in my PC, and two external 2TB (striped 1TB) disks, in all cases encrypted with TrueCrypt just to discourage casual browsing. With firewire it takes about 24 hours to do a complete backup, so with USB add ~30% to that time (minimum), and with slower options... don't bother. An incremental backup usually takes about an hour.

What encryption does is means that it is unlikely that a burglar or visitor to my house will be able to copy (or steal) the data off those disks - my bank statements, password collection, all me email, scans of all the random paperwork that the PTB require and so on. It's mildly annoying to be burgled, it's quite inconvenience to have my identity stolen, it would really annoy me to have to start collecting all that data again, and technically if I lose some bits of it I could go to jail (not having my tax records is a criminal offence).

If the PTB want to read the disks it's easy enough for them to do so, they have many options - they can ask for them, they can threaten me to make me hand them over (the most likely option), they can place me under surveillance to obtain the passwords before arresting me, they can plant software or hardware on my PC to capture them, or they can torture them out of me. Plus, they can outsource any of those options.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Harry,

This is exactally the rationalization that the Nazi's and other facist used to violate the citizens privacy.

"If you have nothing to hide, why do you need privacy."

I'm not sure about the UK, but the US Consitution gaurantees the right to privacy... which means the government isn't allowed to tap my phones or monitor my internet traffic or put a GPS tracker in my car. They only way they are allowed to do this is with a court order... which means they have to convice a judge that there is reasonable evidence to issue that court order.

This is why so many illegal searches get cases thrown out of court.

But, the patriot act is scarry, and there is no need for a court order, etc. This is scarry. There was recently a decision by a Circuit court that a person was not required to reveal the password to the customs officer because it would invade his privacy. I am very glad this president was set.

Please, don't let the "...if you have nothing to hide." argument work.

BOb

The UK is hardly a "fascist" state, Bob and, just as in the US, there are strict rules governing who is allowed to demand access to your data. Please allow me to clarify - I have no problem with encryption - it is of course useful should your house be burgled, etc. What I had an issue with is refusing to decrypt your data for someone who has the legal right to request that you do so. It's all about being a "good citizen" and obeying the law.

[gwynevans]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The UK is hardly a "fascist" state, Bob and, just as in the US, there are strict rules governing who is allowed to demand access to your data.

We obviously have a different defintion of "strict", Harry. Would you like to comment on the cases where covert (physical) surveillance is used to police school catchment areas, for instance? e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/7343445.stm

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by gwynevans

We obviously have a different defintion of "strict", Harry. Would you like to comment on the cases where covert (physical) surveillance is used to police school catchment areas, for instance? e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/7343445.stm

Certainly, yes. An excellent example of a local council doing the "right thing" for its local residents by ensuring that only those children legally entitled to attend a very popular school do so. You will note, I trust, that out of the (I think) 6 families for which this was done, four of them were found to have submitted a fraudulent application. That means that, as a result of this, four children can now attend the school of their choice who would otherwise not have been able to do so.

You surely don't object to councils using any legal means available to ensure that local people get the services they are entitled to, and that fraudsters are punished, I take it? This surveillance was not conducted at random, but in cases where there was reason to suspect that a fraudulent application had been made, just as it's done in cases where there's reason to suspect that a person is fraudulently claiming disability benefits when they are perfectly fit and well, as in this case, for example.

[xianfox]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why on Earth would you be worried about a "court issuing a subpoena for your data" unless you were engaged in criminal activities? I assume that we're all honest people here!

You've obviously never been involved in even a civil lawsuit. Every lawyer I've ever dealt with is ruthless, even the ones I've hired.

[HarryT]

The UK is not blessed with the "sue everyone at the drop of a hat" culture that the US enjoys . Primarily because, in this country, the loser of a court case generally has to pay all the legal costs for both sides. That tends to prevent frivolous lawsuits. If, however, I had genuine reason to believe that, let's say, someone had been illegally selling my software, then it would not seem unreasonable for a court to be able to order an examination of a computer to determine whether or not my claim was true.

[xianfox]

I didn't say the lawsuit was frivolous. In fact, it was a (partially) legitimate case against my employer. You should have seen the mass of subpoenas the prosecution submitted. In the end, it was ALL up to he judge which ones to allow and which one's to dismiss.

The other reason I care to protect my data, what if Carbonite's servers get hacked? Someone with obviously demonstrated criminal behavior would have my data. Encrypted, at least I get time to cancel my credit cards, change bank accounts, PIN numbers, passwords.

Srsly, there's absolutely no defense for not encrypting your data. I've been in this industry for 29 years now and know all to well exactly what can happen. It's not just the police I protect myself from, it's EVERYONE.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by xianfox

Srsly, there's absolutely no defense for not encrypting your data. I've been in this industry for 29 years now and know all to well exactly what can happen. It's not just the police I protect myself from, it's EVERYONE.

I think you've misread what I said. I have nothing against encryption - it's obviously a good idea to protect personal or sensitive information. What I said I didn't agree with was the idea of using encryption as a method of preventing the government from seeing your data in circumstances where they have a legitimate right to do so (eg, if cases where someone has been accused of downloading child pornography, let's say).

[xianfox]

That's the difference between a subpoena and a search warrant then. I've no problem with that.

[gwynevans]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You surely don't object to councils using any legal means available to ensure that local people get the services they are entitled to, and that fraudsters are punished, I take it?

Actually, I'm not sure if I do support "any legal means available". While I do tend to trust the 'headline' groups mentioned in the original bill, specifically "the Security Service, the Secret Intelligence Service and the Government Communications Headquarters", I'm less happy with the later expanded list of allowed recipients, particulalry the local authorities and I have a number of reservations about their suitability to be conducting that sort of investigation and dealing with the resulting personal data.

As you say "as a result of this, four children can now attend the school of their choice who would otherwise not have been able to do so." On the other hand, being a pragmatic sort, I can't help wondering what was the cost of the investigation to the council & whether, had that cost not been incurred but had been passed to the school, whether they'd have been able to cater for those pupils anyway. That's not, of course, something that's every going to be able to be tested either way, though...

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The UK is hardly a "fascist" state, Bob and, just as in the US, there are strict rules governing who is allowed to demand access to your data.

I just want to make clear that I wasn't calling the UK "fascist" at all. I was saying that stuff like "Why do you need privacy if you are doing nothing wrong?" and "If you are hidding something you must be doing something wrong." are facist/Nazi type thinking. Rationalizations to allow absolute power to corrupt absolutly.

I mentioned the US vs the UK because I didn't know what the specific privacy laws are in the UK.

BOb

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

...I didn't agree with was the idea of using encryption as a method of preventing the government from seeing your data in circumstances where they have a legitimate right to do so (eg, if cases where someone has been accused of downloading child pornography, let's say).

What about 1950's Britain when the police might demand to see someone's private correspondence/diaries/whatever if they suspected two men of having sexual relations?
I don't think we have to go back very far for situations where decent people had to protect themselves from the authorities - and there's nothing to say the same thing couldn't happen again.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think you've misread what I said. I have nothing against encryption - it's obviously a good idea to protect personal or sensitive information. What I said I didn't agree with was the idea of using encryption as a method of preventing the government from seeing your data in circumstances where they have a legitimate right to do so (eg, if cases where someone has been accused of downloading child pornography, let's say).

It's one thing if there is probable cause and a preponderence of evidence and a search warrant is provided by a duly authorized officer of the court.

However, for example, for AT&T to wire tap US citizens with no probable cause or court order is a viloation of the US Consitution and the Bill of Rights.

For a customs officer to ask someone for there password to encrypted files just to see if there was something bad in it is a violation of 5th ammendment rights. http://www.news.com/8301-13578_3-9834495-38.html I also feel the guy looking at files on the laptop was an illegal search. Although I'm not sure what the border crossing rules are... you may have to consent to any search in that case. However, is searching the contents of a hard drive part of that?

BOb

[Icarusbop]

Rant warning!!!!
Normally I stay out of this kind of debate, but just vouldn't resist, this one....

Originally Posted by HarryT

But do you really think that encrypting your data is going to make you look less "guilty"? Anyone in a civilised country has (IMHO) an obligation to cooperate fully with duty constituted authorities, not try to "hide" things from them.

Rubbish, hiding things does not make you guilty of anything. Everyone should have a right to privacy, and everyone has the right to secrets. No matter who is in power - this kind of rationisation only leads to more invasion of privacy which in turn is giving 'Them' more power. 'They' will then use this philosophy against you, to encroach even further... ' I see sir, you don't mind cameras in the street, but not in your house. So you are theerfore doing something you shouldn't in your house.'. And no matter what anyone says they have no right to put cameras in my house. What next - they want camera in my bathroom and bedroom, watching me on the loo and with my wife. But if I put up a fight, they say I'm obviously trying to do something illegal in my bedroom and/or my toilet.

Originally Posted by HarryT

The UK is hardly a "fascist" state, Bob and, just as in the US, there are strict rules governing who is allowed to demand access to your data.

Not yet, but it is rapidly getting there with the plethora of minor invasions to your privacy and freedoms being taken away. 'They' are using the bludgeon of safety and anti-terror to slowly erode what you can and can't do inside the constraints of the law. For example 'It's illegal to smoke in a pub' (and I am a non-smoker) on the surface it is a good thing. but still taking away some peoples freedoms - the pub landlord for example who building it is, should have the right to his say on what goes on in his premesis.

Originally Posted by HarryT

The UK is not blessed with the "sue everyone at the drop of a hat" culture that the US enjoys.

Hogwash - it's not as bad as the US yet, but the compensation culture in the UK is rapidy growing.

Originally Posted by HarryT

You surely don't object to councils using any legal means available to ensure that local people get the services they are entitled to, and that fraudsters are punished, I take it?

Yeah right - like me paying the council £1500 a year in council tax to live in a house I own for services, Hmmmm lets see, how about the bins for example! I pay for the service but they keep telling me to put less rubbish in them, please don't use the bins more than necessary, god forbid you leave your bin lid a fraction ajar lest you get slapped for a £120 bully boy fine, because you are trying to get rid of your rubbish using a service you pay for. 'Oh, well don't create so much waste then' - Well : what about all the junk posted though my door that I don't want and did not ask for. How about the junk that fills the corner of my garden when it gets blown off the street that the council don't clean properly, meaning I have to put it in my bin, then 'They' now want to charge me extra for taking it away! 'Please help save the world by recyling' This is great and I do try to do my bit, but when I put bottles and cans in the recycle bin they ask me to wash it first - but please save water!!!
The council had no right to spy on people like evil criminals - The PC society we have created has decided that all children have the same right to an education - I have brought my kids up well, to be polite and not swear. Not all parents are like that, and when my daughter goes to school I don't want her behaviour to be ruined by kids that have been brought up with a lower standard than mine. This leads to people wanting their kids to go to other schools than perhaps the system would like ( i.e. the closest school is full of chavs and the council are forcing me to send my nice child there) - this leads to people trying to fake the school system to get their kids the better school - you can't blame them for that - blame the system that says 'If a child is unruly they cannot be expelled'

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm afraid that I find that a deeply disturbing viewpoint. Speaking as a person who has a number of family members in the police force, I'm very sad to hear that you feel that way about our police.

The police as idividuals are great. They try their best to do a good job, but their hands are well and truly tied by a system that is more interested in making money than enforcing law. The police system is predominantly desposed toward chasing anything that has a number plate on it and ignoring the rest as much as possible. Instead they ask for more [street] cameras instead of getting more police staff. And you are also forgetting that once the countrywide surveillance is in place, nice governments can be replaced with ones who are not so nice who can then abuse the systems already installed. And police staff do get corrupted.
As to who has rights to view data - well, I remember a distinct example this year of our fantastic government losing CD's full of millions of peoples personal information, simply by accident. You think they couldn't get this data on purpose if they wanted to, whether they had the 'legal' permission or not?

It simple for me - don't put any data anywhere online, or 'They' will get it.
Make your own backups, buy a tape drive from ebay if you must. Encrypt and password protect all your data and password protect your tapes too.

Rant off.

[deedward9]

Wow, Firstly, thanks to everyone for the great info, I really appreciate the opinions. And sorry didn't mean to start a heated debate, but I appreciate again the info.

Devin