Discussion: eBook Publishing Model proposals

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Along those lines, as much as I argue against DRM, a really strong DRM should allow a large distributor (e.g. Amazon) to heavily subsidize the e-reader.

...largely out of fashion nowadays with electronics. I think printers are about what's left...the consumables model needs consumables to actually work

Tho...it is said that Amazon is trying this "upside down"...they are selling the razor for a bit of upfront profit and losing money on a lot of the blades by selling them under cost, hoping to make up in general volume and services on the document conversion.

This is...loco, but you know...I guess if someone is gonna give it a try it might as well be Bezos.

I read a couple of publishers were less than pleased with this scheme. I imagine they would be because it drives the public perception of the value/cost/asking price of the product down across the board.

So if it actually *works* then maybe Bezos isn't *completely* loco

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Also being able to go to a publisher's website and see what it forthcoming for ebooks so we don't end up buying the pbook when the ebook is soon to follow. I personally think that not telling us is akin to lying via withholding information.

I never saw that as a publisher's obligation, myself... it's like not telling us about a sale until the day it starts... but hopefully, if e-books become as regular as paperbacks, you'll be able to take it for granted someday that an e-book will be available, and just wait for it.

Originally Posted by mrkai

What most interesting about that tho, and pretty unrelated to our specific discussion but interesting nonetheless is that all of the *audiobook* versions floas free, fast and in abundance thru the ether...

Considering how incredibly expensive audiobooks are compared to print versions, this doesn't surprise me one bit. And publishers clearly look at audiobooks differently than print books... more like a multimedia product, maybe. Apparently the sales figures for audiobooks is nothing compared to most printed books, so the publishers have adopted the idea of them being an essential loss-leader.

Maybe they could eventually look at e-books this way, which could go a long way towards getting them to drop DRM.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by mrkai

Ok...I'll rephrase that since the "no offense" part seems to CLEARLY have been ignored.

Ah, okay, yeah I didn't notice it up in the post title -- I often miss the title completely, because they aren't widely used here, and the quote being between it and the rest of the message pretty much guarantees that I, for one, will miss it entirely as part of the actual post.

In any case, I took no offense, but rather wanted to explain why I felt the Baen point isn't as irrelevant as you seem to believe.

Originally Posted by mrkai

I go to amazon's top sellers and the NYT fiction list I see several authors I recognize.

As I don't read sci-fi I guess you know this could have been a limiting factor there.

I was suspecting that might be the case, and only meant to subtly point out that it might be a factor.

Originally Posted by mrkai

The other point, and agian, getting twisted up on who or who is not a Baen fan my be getting tangental here, but are any of these Baen NYT Bestsellers themselves available from Baen?

I'm assuming you mean "available from Baen as e-books" because obviously all of Baen's books are available from them as p-books.

To actually answer your question then: yes, this is one of Baen's "things" -- all of their new publications are available as e-books. In fact, many of them are available as e-book Advanced Reader Copies, well before the official publication date. They also work through their back-list gradually, with the presumed intent of making all of it available eventually.

Originally Posted by mrkai

Like the Grammys (for example) there is a grammy for Best Audio Engineering on a Latin Fusion Recording-type Grammy...but not many people can tell you who won it.

I go to Mobileread, I see stuff I know or people I've heard of...and I mean heard of *casually*..not as a fan of a particular genre.

If you're talking about the books that are in our e-book uploads section, well, that's not really a fair basis of comparison. What I mean is that those books are all 1) public domain (so they've been around a long time), 2) selected by the folks who processed and uploaded them so they're likely to be things those folks enjoy, and 3) (the most telling in my opinion) often written by authors who were taught in High School English classes.

Pretty much everyone who's made it through 9th Grade (corresponds to ~14 years of age for the non-U.S. reader) English Class has at least heard of Charles Dickens or Charlotte Brontë, for instance. Whether or not they've actually read anything those folks have written is another matter, of course.

Originally Posted by mrkai

How anyone could have not picked this up...I dunno.

I might suggest the same thing about my last point.

Originally Posted by mrkai

Seems like fanboys looking for a fight.

To the hypersensitive, your choice of words might seem like someone picking a fight, but that's a matter of perception, and generally around here there's very little tendency to do either, as it's simply not much tolerated.

Originally Posted by mrkai

Wrong thread...unless you serious think that

1. Big Publishers would go for the Baen model and
2. Big Publisher's product (with in the above stated "I go to Mobileread, I see stuff I know or people I've heard of...and I mean heard of *casually*...") have the same market weight/value

If so...rock on

Actually, I think the original point was that Baen's model might be a better choice of example of what works than the example of Apple's model, because Baen deals, successfully, with e-books rather than music -- the gist being, why compare oranges to apples when you have a perfectly good orange to compare them to?

That being said, the facts that Baen does have an actual e-book store, from which they show a profit, and have a number of bestseller list titles available from, which seem mysteriously resistant to piracy despite their glaring lack of any DRM would seem to be extraordinarily relevant to the current topic of discussion.

I understood that you wished to discuss how e-books might be successfully and profitably marketed in the mainstream, but perhaps I misunderstood your intent?

If I don't misunderstand, then I'd figure that a specific, real-world example of a company that's doing a darned good job of doing precisely that in a particular genre would be of interest, along with the details of how they're going about it.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by mrkai

So if it actually *works* then maybe Bezos isn't *completely* loco

I think Bezos was pretty shrewd: Amazon already is in business to get a cut from product sales. Kindle allows Amazon to sell more e-books and get a bigger cut from e-book sales, plus the reader itself. And if Kindle takes off, more people will buy e-books, and the publishers will have had someone else work out the whole e-book thing for them.

The only part of Kindle that I don't like is the DRM'd proprietary format locked onto the Kindle part. (Mind you, that's a big part.) The rest of Amazon's method works for me.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I never saw that as a publisher's obligation, myself... it's like not telling us about a sale until the day it starts... but hopefully, if e-books become as regular as paperbacks, you'll be able to take it for granted someday that an e-book will be available, and just wait for it.

They announce a lot of pbooks. Why not also announce at the same time that the ebook is also coming out? It's a simple thing to do and would make it so much easier.

Plus, if I was to purchase the pbook when I wanted the ebook and the ebook came out after I had the pbook, I would be pissed at the publisher.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

They announce a lot of pbooks. Why not also announce at the same time that the ebook is also coming out? It's a simple thing to do and would make it so much easier.

I'm just thinking from a marketing standpoint here: A lot of products are introduced today, with heavy marketing to get people to buy. Then a red one is introduced tomorrow, prompting more people to buy. Then a fuzzy one comes out next year, etc, etc, etc. It's fairly standard procedure for products to be introduced without alluding to another version coming later... because then, fewer people will buy now.

I'm not condoning it, I just understand why they are doing it.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Actually, I think the original point was that Baen's model might be a better choice of example of what works than the example of Apple's model, because Baen deals, successfully, with e-books rather than music -- the gist being, why compare oranges to apples when you have a perfectly good orange to compare them to?

Because I don't think they are that far apart. Digital music and digital books are essentially software products.

Originally Posted by NatCh

That being said, the facts that Baen does have an actual e-book store, from which they show a profit, and have a number of bestseller list titles available from, which seem mysteriously resistant to piracy despite their glaring lack of any DRM would seem to be extraordinarily relevant to the current topic of discussion.

I understood that you wished to discuss how e-books might be successfully and profitably marketed in the mainstream, but perhaps I misunderstood your intent?

I guess it depends on your definition of mainstream. I sense that you may be attached in some way to Baen (I don't know, something in the tone of the responses is almost defensive) so this may have something to do with it....so let me put it this way:

How many Oprah Book Club selections are being sold by Baen as eBooks?

Originally Posted by NatCh

If I don't misunderstand, then I'd figure that a specific, real-world example of a company that's doing a darned good job of doing precisely that in a particular genre would be of interest, along with the details of how they're going about it.

I do not believe that if Baen were selling more of and different kinds of DRM free books with a super broad appeal that this would be the case.

I don't *know* this, but my experience with the other fork in the road tells me that "Pop" is what ends up flooding the waves, not Indie.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Actually, I think the original point was that Baen's model might be a better choice of example of what works than the example of Apple's model, because Baen deals, successfully, with e-books rather than music -- the gist being, why compare oranges to apples when you have a perfectly good orange to compare them to?

That being said, the facts that Baen does have an actual e-book store, from which they show a profit, and have a number of bestseller list titles available from, which seem mysteriously resistant to piracy despite their glaring lack of any DRM would seem to be extraordinarily relevant to the current topic of discussion.

I understood that you wished to discuss how e-books might be successfully and profitably marketed in the mainstream, but perhaps I misunderstood your intent?

I'd agree: Baen is a good example of a company, already selling e-books successfully, to examine.

Another is Harlequin, who is doing a good business with e-books too... romance is considered the best-selling of e-book genres in most markets.

So, if these two work as well as they do, the questions are, what parts of their methods work, and how do we get the other publishers to emulate their methods (or is there some reason why they might need to alter them for their own needs)?

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

The rest of Amazon's method works for me.

On the price tho considering the current set of limitations. You can't even read the things on a computer if you want to and I don't know if they have a "re-download" scheme. $10 is a bit much for such a limited offering...but granted it is better than $16

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Another is Harlequin, who is doing a good business with e-books too... romance is considered the best-selling of e-book genres in most markets.

...is that there is a much higher rate of consumption of these books and a lot of "churn" on the content side so its a volume business. They put those things out like, daily almost don't they?

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

So, if these two work as well as they do, the questions are, what parts of their methods work, and how do we get the other publishers to emulate their methods (or is there some reason why they might need to alter them for their own needs)?

I think this speaks for itself in a way; other publishers do not believe their products will have the same sale/loss ratio as say Harlequin or Baen...for...whatever reason. If it is widely known that these two entities are successful, perhaps other publishers may judge success by a different metric?

It is certain worth investigating why these two examples are being "ignored" by others, I will grant you that for sure.

[Liviu_5]

Very interesting ideas above. Let me add my thoughts:

1: Dedicated devices are not going to become mass market unless very, very cheap (50$) - comparison with music is not valid since for music you need a device to listen to it, for books you do not need a device to read; also music is one dimensional, a stream of sound, so ergonomics considerations are quite different than for books which are 2 dimensional

2: The main reason people do not like to read novels from pc/laptop is not the lcd screen, but ergonomics - you want a comfortable position, you want to lose yourself in the book...

3: There are lots of things about books that have been ingrained in human culture over centuries (unchangeability, ability to read anywhere...) that are going to be very hard to overcome unless the alternative offers extraordinary benefits.

4: To me the proposition that people as a mass are going to pay 3-400$ for a device for the privilege of reading 10$ books that they do even fully own is mind boggling. Sure, some are doing it for various reasons, but to extrapolate from that to millions it's a big stretch.

5: E-books as a commercial proposition, rather than a hobby need to show extraordinary benefits to people for mass adoption, and right now that is quite far away.

6: When your business model is open the slushes, let everything to flow and swim or sink, I think that your number one worry is that your product stands out in the waters, and there e-books can be very helpful; Baen is the best example here since e-books were the main reason it succeeded in building itself up from a paperback house to the healthy sf imprint of today.

[mrkai]

Now this is interesting to me...

NatCh tells us that Baen shows a profit, specifically on their *eBook* store.

I will take it as read that this is strictly on the eBook store as opposed to the pBooks doing a spread and covering losses..but even still...

As I'm quite open to learning and such, I decided to check the "seedy underground...the soft underbelly of the Internet" for the authors mentioned previously in this thread...and I found (easily) I believe every eBook from every single one of them in like 5 minutes.

Seriously.

This makes me wonder, then, if Baen can show this on paper to some folks...why on Earth don't they have some of those Oprah Book Club types in their stable?!

The above SHOULD NOT BE MISCONSTRUED as accusatory or a maligning of Baen in any way. People get...touchy around here, heheh.

I'm really curious about this! I mean, if what I understand is correct, Baen is sitting on the paperwork that demonstrates that a whole hell of a lot of people are dead wrong about losing trucks of money t freely traded eBooks.

What's going on here?

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by mrkai

I didn't see a single author I recognized in the whole of Baen's very small catalog.

I think this is what I'd call a "big tell".

I you read much SF and Fantasy, you'll recognize their authors. If you don't, you wont. Shrug. No offense taken, as I'm sure none was intended.

The point I was trying to make is that they are a content provider. A respected (if small) part of the publishing industry. They have a sane (from the customer's point of view) eBook policy. And they don't have a piracy problem!

Some have argued that this is because they are 'too small' and their books 'aren't popular enough.' Well... They put multiple books on the NYT bestsellers list each year. (Aside: They do so in numbers that are the envy of much larger publishers, as a matter of fact.) And they don't have a piracy problem with those bestselling books, either.

They make a good example exactly because they sit on the publisher/content-provider side of the fence, just like the big guys. And they make a dandy existence proof that sane, consumer friendly policies do NOT lead to piracy.

Xenophon

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by mrkai

Now this is interesting to me...

NatCh tells us that Baen shows a profit, specifically on their *eBook* store.

I will take it as read that this is strictly on the eBook store as opposed to the pBooks doing a spread and covering losses..but even still...

Yes. They do indeed make a profit directly from the eBook store in its own right. It's not enough to run the company, but it is bigger than all non-US sales combined (Canada included).

Originally Posted by mrkai

As I'm quite open to learning and such, I decided to check the "seedy underground...the soft underbelly of the Internet" for the authors mentioned previously in this thread...and I found (easily) I believe every eBook from every single one of them in like 5 minutes.

Seriously.

This makes me wonder, then, if Baen can show this on paper to some folks...why on Earth don't they have some of those Oprah Book Club types in their stable?!

Um... 'cause they specialize in SF and Fantasy, and those Oprah Book Club types don't generally write in that mode.

Originally Posted by mrkai

The above SHOULD NOT BE MISCONSTRUED as accusatory or a maligning of Baen in any way. People get...touchy around here, heheh.

Understood. From the beginning, on my part at least.

Originally Posted by mrkai

I'm really curious about this! I mean, if what I understand is correct, Baen is sitting on the paperwork that demonstrates that a whole hell of a lot of people are dead wrong about losing trucks of money t freely traded eBooks.

What's going on here?

The folks at Baen are puzzled about this, too. They've been screaming the news to the heavens for the last five-plus years. They tell the other publishers. They quote actual (gasp) numbers (gasp) in public venues. And the publishing world as a whole goes on their merry way, p*ssing off customers and leaving significant* amounts of money on the table.

Eric Flint gave a talk at a big publishing industry conference about e-Publishing and Baen's success. He reported back that the individuals he spoke to all said things paraphrased as "you're clearly onto something here, but I'll never be able to convince the Powers That Be."

So... why won't the *&^%&*^% idiots pay attention? Beats me!

*Baen doesn't talk exact profit and sales numbers (at least not to me), but they've indicated that their ebook sales represent something above 10% and below 25% of their total. What publisher wouldn't want a 10% increase in sales?

Xenophon

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by NatCh

Actually, I think the original point was that Baen's model might be a better choice of example of what works than the example of Apple's model, because Baen deals, successfully, with e-books rather than music -- the gist being, why compare oranges to apples when you have a perfectly good orange to compare them to?

That being said, the facts that Baen does have an actual e-book store, from which they show a profit, and have a number of bestseller list titles available from, which seem mysteriously resistant to piracy despite their glaring lack of any DRM would seem to be extraordinarily relevant to the current topic of discussion.

I understood that you wished to discuss how e-books might be successfully and profitably marketed in the mainstream, but perhaps I misunderstood your intent?

If I don't misunderstand, then I'd figure that a specific, real-world example of a company that's doing a darned good job of doing precisely that in a particular genre would be of interest, along with the details of how they're going about it.

NatCh hit most of my intent. The one missing piece is that the content-providers for the stuff Apple sells via iTunes perceive themselves as having been screwed over (whether correctly or not), and I fear that the Big Publishing guys worry about having the same thing happen to them. The iTunes model has clearly worked for Apple and for the Consumer, but it is at best arguable whether it's worked for the big record labels (they don't think so, certainly).

So the Baen example is relevant because they're a publisher too. A content-provider, not a widget maker. It's an example that a Big Publisher might look at and say "They're like us. Small, but like us" instead of saying "iTunes? The content guys got screwed! I don't want that!!! "

Even with the Kindle, we have Amazon trying to act more like Apple with iTunes. And the publishers are probably quite concerned (and understandably so). I think that they're wrong to be concerned, but I understand why they would be.

Xenophon