Seriously thoughtful Contemplating the Onuissance

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

But note that "legislating incandescent bulbs right off the shelves" isn't an optimum solution either. For example, the lightbulb in my unfinished attic hasn't been changed in more than 20 years -- it was there when we bought the house and has yet to burn out.

When it finally does burn out, it makes good economic sense to replace it with the bulb that has the cheapest up-front cost! It is used so rarely that the up-front cost absolutely dominates any possible energy savings from using a more efficient bulb. So why does it make sense to require me to replace it with a CFL at 5x the price (or more!)???

Xenophon

To the consumer, it doesn't. That's why, I think, the EU's method of doing it - by passing legislation to ban the sale of incandscent lightbulbs - is, I think, the only way that you're going to make people change.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

@Xenphon: So leave my 1 bulb because it does so little damage? I submit that if it was the only bulb out there, fine. But in fact, it has millions of friends, and the damage is cumulative... As I said, everyone has an excuse to slack off somewhere. Problem is, we all end up slacking off... and look where we are...

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

To the consumer, it doesn't. That's why, I think, the EU's method of doing it - by passing legislation to ban the sale of incandscent lightbulbs - is, I think, the only way that you're going to make people change.

Sad to think that's the only way to get the U.S. to do the right thing... so much for American spirit and fortitude...

[Sparrow]

I think many people here had a 'what's the point?' moment when the UK government announced they're going ahead building new airport runways to provide extra capacity.

Maybe if our leaders led rather than dictated, people would become a bit more enthusiastic.

[HarryT]

It's not all bad news, though, Sparrow. You must admit that the trains now are a HECK of a lot better than they were 20 years ago - at least where I live, on the West Coast main line. If I go any reasonably long distance, these days I'll pretty much always go by train rather than drive. And Manchester, where I work, has an excellent tram system.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's not all bad news, though, Sparrow. You must admit that the trains now are a HECK of a lot better than they were 20 years ago - at least where I live, on the West Coast main line. If I go any reasonably long distance, these days I'll pretty much always go by train rather than drive. And Manchester, where I work, has an excellent tram system.

I used to commute into London, and found the train system pretty reliable. Although on the rare occasions it failed, utter chaos ensued. And it is extremely expensive.

The only real downside with public transport tends to be the public (screaming kids, deafening ipods, mobile conversations, drunks, the generally bewildered, rowing families... and they all want to sit next to me ) - apart from that it's not too bad.

[ruskie]

I'm getting fed up with CFLs and other such light sources... Sadly I have a sensitivity to their light; but I am hopping that LED light sources will become better in the next few years.

Also I regularly hear the buzz from CFLs which is annoying to say the least. I agree there needs to be better solutions but atm there aren't any... CFLs get annoying fast, LEDs just don't provide the light output of normal ones but that I believe is mainly in the design of most of the bulbs... They focus instead of diffuse the light. I am actually considering adding quite a lot of LED light sources to get the same effect but again their colour is skewed to the blue range which isn't healthy as well but that is improving.

As for such legislation I don't agree with forcing people doing that. I would switch my electricity to renewable sources if they didn't charge a premium for that. The incentive should be financial and nothing else.

Just like my cellco got me to switch to ebills(though I would have switched over anyway). They offered so much less per month if you switch from paper to ebills. I never looked back and only look forward to when others will start offering the same.

As for public transport around here it's decent and I use it from time to time but since there are two of use traveling to nearly the same destination a car isn't such a bad choice. And the most time saved is in the morning. Since a bus seems to get slower from one point to the other then during the afternoon.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

...
Speaking of which, all frequently-used bulbs in my house have been fluorescent for a long long time now. But up-front costs still dominate for infrequently used bulbs. And will continue to do so for a fair while.

Xenophon

Prices will drop, probably faster than you think. Given their life span, 1:5 isn't bad.
Here in Denamrk, prices are nor down to 1:2 or 1:3 of an ordinary bulb. This mean the price of the CFL is actually better.

Legislation and taxes works quite well in Europe to adjust behaviour. I'm saving on heating and hot water because there is a direct correlation with the amount on my heating bill. I don't have a car, but if I had, I'd choose one that didn't use much gas because I am directly saving money. And the state gets money to spend on infrastructure, hospitals, schools, etc.. etc. which I will directly or indirectly benefit from.

I can understand that such a welfare system cannot be copied to the USA, but I do find it hard to understand that reluctance to invest in the common good, like education and health, that I see.
I think most people are short sighted and bit self centred and need an extra push, such as legislation and taxes.
(BTW, I think people are much the same here, we're just dealing with it a bit differently).

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Ah-- the "Two wrongs make a right" argument... let the world go to Hell since they all hate us anyway... Maybe it's time for Americans to Lighten Up.



Actually, they are being told to do without, and many of them are already doing a better job at it than we are (those that had it at one time to do without, that is). And the US, as the country that would have to bite the bullet hardest by doing without, and would have the biggest impact (because we use so much more per person/per capita than any other country) are being looked to, to set the good example for others ("If we can do it, so can you!")... not to whine that "nobody likes us"...



That's not all of the answer... the rest is sensible use of the resources and technology we have, so we don't need the equivalent of a nuke plant on every block. That's what we've been avoiding for the past 50+ years, and what we can no longer afford to do.

Being intentionally selfish and petulant and wilfully damaging the environment because we don't feel "liked," is only making the US look even worse. We could instead show some stones by standing up and doing the right thing, not to be liked, but because it's the right thing to do. I don't want to believe "Get off my lawn!" has become the national motto.

Steve, in 30 years the biggest problem in the US grid will be handling peak load on sunny July days from all the solar rooftops. And those rooftop won't be there from government mandate but from a combination of high bills for generated power and (then) low cost of solar. I expect my sprawling hog of a house will be above energy breakeven, with the excess probably going to an electric car. But until then, I'm not going to plow down my house and live in a 30 Sq meter closet on a rail line to make other people feel better. And I don't see China or Inda turning back their development clock, either. But it's always the Americans at fault.....

And "Get Off My Lawn" is a proud rallying cry for freedom.

(Oh, and by the way, I run CFL in my hog of a house. With a 10 month payback to profit, of course I did. After 10 months, I have more money for gasoline....

[vivaldirules]

In the 30 years the biggest problem in the US grid just might be: who cares? The production and distribution of electricity to American homes may be among the least of our worries.

[Ea]

Can anyone enlighten me as to what "onuissance" means? It seems to be a made-up word? And it's not in the dictionary.

[Greg Anos]

I guess I'm an old geezer, but I heard all this before in the 1970's. Remember the famous bets over resource shortages? We were all going to be starving in the street because there weren't enough resources. Funny thing happened, the free market solved the problem. The next 20 years were the richest in human history. Today, I see nuclear finally starting to get past NIMBY and the chicken littles, mainly because the chicken littles now fear Carbon more than Radiation. We could have been 75 percent Nuclear now, if it wasn't for the "No Nuke" crowd 40 years ago. Same crowd today, only it's "No Carbon" today.

If you want to put on the Hairshirt, be my guest. But if you point a gun my way, I'll point mine back. That, comrade, is freedom....

[LazyScot]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Sad to think that's the only way to get the U.S. to do the right thing... so much for American spirit and fortitude...

People (i.e. not just Americans) seem to dislike change. I think that is why "no" and "opposition" are such popular positions. When someone proposes change, the "natural" response is to say that you like the world as it is, and so don't want to change things.

Now, in my experience Americans (and to be fair quite a few other nationalities) are natural innovators and great problem solvers -- given them an interesting challenge and they rise too it, and then some. The classic example has to be JFK and the Moon.

So don't tell people what not to do, but challenge them to make the 1000mpg car, the zero energy input house, the 1W PC (including display).....

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

So why does it make sense to require me to replace it with a CFL at 5x the price (or more!)???

Xenophon

I get what you are saying. It make sense. But two things.

1. CFL are on the way out. LED is the new CFL.

2. If more people bought the CFL/LED lights, the prices would come down on them.

BOb

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I guess I'm an old geezer, but I heard all this before in the 1970's. Remember the famous bets over resource shortages? We were all going to be starving in the street because there weren't enough resources. Funny thing happened, the free market solved the problem. The next 20 years were the richest in human history. Today, I see nuclear finally starting to get past NIMBY and the chicken littles, mainly because the chicken littles now fear Carbon more than Radiation. We could have been 75 percent Nuclear now, if it wasn't for the "No Nuke" crowd 40 years ago. Same crowd today, only it's "No Carbon" today.

If you want to put on the Hairshirt, be my guest. But if you point a gun my way, I'll point mine back. That, comrade, is freedom....

I think, Ralph, with the greatest respect, that the very real issue of "global warming" is too important to take that attitude to. You and I will probably be dead before anything too catastrophic happens, but I really don't want to leave a crisis awaiting my grandchildren.