MobileRead For the 2016 categories, as a 1st step, can we.... - Page 2

WT Sharpe · 02-04-2015, 04:56 PM

I think during nominations, members should either be restricted to three votes OR have unlimited votes, as in the voting poll. Any limit over three it's going to be hard to keep track of, but if members are free to nominate, second, and third as many selections as they please there would be no need for anyone to keep track of anything. As to the number of books that make it into the vote, that needs be restricted only by the number of choices allowed by the software.

HomeInMyShoes · 02-04-2015, 05:11 PM

My first thought is whatever is easiest for the person running it. Too many books in the vote makes if hard on the admin as well. The Storm Front Rule is a useful one, but hard on the admins. I've run contests on other forums and I appreciate everything the administrators of the bookclubs do.

If you lived close by, I'd take you and sun_surfer out for a BEvERage.

Dazrin · 02-04-2015, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Here's a six-month running average for voters in the bookclub.

I was thinking originally that the drop had something to do with changes to categories, but looking more closely, the drop was across all categories and from February 2011 on. Categories weren't changed in 2011, they were in 2010, but voting was still high.

I think your original thought has some merit. My gut feel, which I heard last year from others as well, is that part of the reason we are seeing less participation is because this is turning into the Literary Book Club "Lite". I am not bashing the Literary Club, but I don't think the main book club was intended to be that. Not that a specific purpose is really defined.

Here are the categories for 2010 (highest participation) and 2014 (lowest).

Code:

2010                             2012-2015
January:   Science Fiction	 Second Chance 
February:  Romance	         Romance
March:     Nonfiction   	 Travel/Adventure
April:     Humor     	         Classics
May:       Classic	         Mystery/Thriller
June:      Thriller/Suspense	 Award Winners
July:      Fantasy (trees/magic) Non-fiction
August:    Free For All	         Science Fiction
September: Mystery/Crime	 Banned/Challenged Books
October:   Horror	         Patricia Clark Memorial Library
November:  Science Fiction	 Foreign (originally non-English)
December:  Classic	         Short Stories

If we look at what is now gone vs what we now have:
Removed (-6): Science Fiction (x1), Fantasy, Humor, Free-For-All, Horror, Classic (x1)
Combined (-1): Mystery/Crime and Thriller/Suspense into Mystery/Thriller
Added (+7): Second Chance, Travel/Adventure, Award Winners, Banned/Challenged Books, PCML, Foreign, Short Stories
Same (5): Science Fiction (x1), Non-Fiction, Romance, Classic (x1), Mystery/Thriller

We have taken out 4 months with genre categories (Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Horror and Mystery/Thriller) and added several categories that lean toward "literary books" (Award Winners, Travel/Adventure, Banned/Challenged Books, Foreign). I think the loss of Classic and addition of PCML is about a wash as well as the Second-Chance vs. Free-For-All.

Dazrin · 02-04-2015, 05:26 PM

Just copying sun surfer's post to this thread since he has a lot of good points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun surfer

Most things in this club are voted on - as in every single category now in use (we had a poll to decide each category), plus all winning book selections. I know it's frustrating to some that older or more literary books often win here. I do think free factors in sometimes, and yes, I also think crossover from the lit club factors in. It will be a little long and it’s been a long time coming (I’ve had these thoughts for years now), but I’ll just lay my feelings on the matter all out on the table here, as now seems as good a time as any to do so:

I think it all has to do with the fact that this forum is off on its own so there's not many drive-by (or click-by, heh) votes (though those kinds of voters might not actually read any winners anyway and so may not be ideal to want more of) while alternately, since this club exists in the same forum as the lit club, it's inevitable that some lit club members do keep track of this club and vote in it, leading to more literary results. It should be noted though that some lit club regulars such as myself started off in this general club, so I don't feel we're infiltrating this club at all but rather we're just among the ones who have stuck around as other voters in this club have slowly dwindled over the years. Heh, I still remember a time when I first started here that the club seemed at least half made up of sci-fi/fantasy devotees (and we still have a healthy group of members that really like sci-fi/fantasy here). Anyone remember Hal Spacejock winning (and in a non-sci-fi month)? We didn’t have too much of an inordinate amount of winners in sci-fi/fantasy, but at that time we’d get nominations from that genre in almost every single month despite the real category. We even had to institute the six-month rule because a very small number of members (since it only takes three to get a nomination to the vote) kept voting in the same sci-fi/fantasy book over and over again month after month despite whatever the category was.

In other words, I think the current "problem" or "strength" (depending on your point of view) stems from the fact that we have a little secluded forum here that doesn't encourage the more casual members or new members so much and maybe even scares off some (but not all) potential new blood by its insularity. When I started, the book clubs were in the main reading recommendations forum. Threads would go pages and pages, sometimes 10, 20, or more, nominations would usually be over in a matter of days and polls could get over 50 and closer to 100 votes sometimes (I think there were a few months we even had over 100 votes). I don't think it's just the move to this forum that led to lower numbers; I also think the site itself has slowed a little from its heyday when ereaders were so new to most of us, so a move back there might not put us back to those kinds of numbers. But it's no coincidence that when we moved to this dedicated forum, participation fell (a lot) soon after.

I don't know if the “answer” (if we even need an answer) is moving the clubs back to a broader forum. I've mentioned it before and not got a great response, and perhaps it's for the best. I do think it would drum up at least a little more interest in the clubs, but maybe not much, and anyway maybe some members would rather not have too much of an influx of new or more casual members as we wouldn’t know how that would affect things. And the big thing is that it would be a big change and a lot of work for someone (a moderator/administrator/probablyTom) to do and it might not be worth it, plus I have a feeling some non-members wouldn’t like to see any book club threads back in the reading recommendation forum and its stickies again, even if we kept this book club forum as a vault and only put new monthly threads in the reading recommendations forum and moved older ones here each month. But, staying secluded in this forum, I tend to think we probably won’t ever see much increase in numbers again and should just strive for staying strong enough for a medium/small viable club, and that can be okay and good. The literary club also lost members in the move to this dedicated forum, but it levelled off and though it’s small (less than half the votes of this club many months) the lit club is doing well here and often has good, lengthy discussion threads.

Anyway, for us still here in this general club, we just have to make do with the group we have now, and unfortunately for those of you wanting newer or less literary books chosen more often, the group we have now seems to prefer the opposite many months (but certainly not all - we did just choose The Bat recently, for instance, and that is neither literary nor old). What we are getting is what we as a group want. For example, I’m hearing suggestions now about how we should try to make sure we get less public domain/free books, less literary books and less older books. Well, during our categories nominations when we went through month by month nominating and voting in new categories, I suggested two categories, I think multiple times, that never won a month - "contemporary" (so it would've ensured a new book would be chosen) and "not free" (so it would've ensured a book wouldn't be chosen because it's free). I'm fine with them not being chosen as categories as they were just two ideas among many good suggestions that people had, but the point is, the group as a whole had many chances to choose categories like these and chose not to.

So what we have now and what we are getting now IS what the group as a whole wants. I just think that people who prefer literary or older works tend to be less vocal overall and so that can distort the picture. Vote results tell the real story. But things do change year-to-year, whether subtley or drastically. If we change categories for 2016, any of you can suggest more defined categories, such as “Contemporary Sci-Fi” or “Non-Literary Fantasy”, or Non-Literary Contemporary”, etc. and see if you can drum up enough support for any of them be included. In my opinion, without this, in the current atmosphere here, we will almost always have many free/older/literary nominations each month. I do think I remember that someone tried something like it with Adventure last time in nominating “Pulp Adventure” or something similar, but it wasn’t voted in. I do understand the frustration some of you have since old or literary often wins here, and often edges out a newer or less literary choice by only a vote or two. I’m sure that can be annoying, and I might actually be for a month or two a year to be defined as non-literary and/or contemporary so that older or literary nominations are excluded at least a few months of the year for those of you who prefer that, but otherwise, as long as it fits the category at hand, since I do like old

, stodgy

, dusty

, boring

literary

books, I will continue to nominate or support them as I please.

I do agree that the reason we have so much overlap is because of who is around and participating still. I guess my thought is that if one was less literary we might be able to catch (and hold) a different crowd which would benefit us all.

Synamon · 02-04-2015, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

<snip>
I don't gauge participation much on the discussion, but on the voting. The drop in voting disturbs me as it means that books people want to read aren't getting nominated for some reason. We seem to be getting a good number of nominations still so I don't see anything worrisome yet on that front, although December with only 4 options and this month with only 9 options might be a trend. We'll see how Classics goes in April as it usually fares well despite my personal vendetta against it.

I wanted to respond to this portion of your post. I'm actually more disappointed in the lack of discussion. You seem very concerned about all the "old" books, but the most recent new book, The Bat, got only 5 posts in the discussion thread. That's horrible. Not that most of the discussion threads last year were much better, but they usually got to double digits.

I don't think it matters how many books get nominated, it matters that no one is reading or participating in discussions about the one book that is chosen by vote. I'd be interested in knowing why this is.

Is one book every month too much to handle? I know some of the nominated books have been long and even as a voracious reader length is something I consider when I vote. Some of those older books are shorter which is another advantage in addition to their easy availability.

HomeInMyShoes · 02-04-2015, 05:52 PM

It's a good post. Thanks for refreshing the memory.

Maybe we need a mission statement.

Synamon · 02-04-2015, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazrin

Just copying sun surfer's post to this thread since he has a lot of good points.

I do agree that the reason we have so much overlap is because of who is around and participating still. I guess my thought is that if one was less literary we might be able to catch (and hold) a different crowd which would benefit us all.

Is there is a different crowd?

What attracts people to MobileRead? People come here to find information about their new ereader. They come here to figure out how to use calibre. They come here to download books from the Patricia Clark library. Something else?

In the last case they are clearly interested in public domain books. In the first case their new ereader has opened the door not just to bright shiny new ebooks, but also to the vast repository of free classics. One of the big advantages of ereaders over paper is the availability of quality free reading material.

Dazrin · 02-04-2015, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synamon

Is there is a different crowd?

What attracts people to MobileRead? People come here to find information about their new ereader. They come here to figure out how to use calibre. They come here to download books from the Patricia Clark library. Something else?

In the last case they are clearly interested in public domain books. In the first case their new ereader has opened the door not just to bright shiny new ebooks, but also to the vast repository of free classics. One of the big advantages of ereaders over paper is the availability of quality free reading material.

I originally came here for the Kindle Developer's sub-forum since I wanted to get rid of the dead author screensavers. But I stayed because of the Reading Recommendations forum and I haven't spent significant time in the Kindle specific sub-forum for a couple years. I look every once in a while for an update to the screensaver hack but that is about it.

As for new people, I am thinking of all the people who post in the "What are you reading" thread or "The Martian" or "The Dresden Files" threads but don't participate in the book club. Looking through the last few pages of the "What are you reading thread" I don't see any classics mentioned, maybe I missed some, but I do see a LOT of science fiction, fantasy, YA, mysteries, and other genre books.

We have a lot of people in just the Reading Recommendations forum who are fairly active but don't participate in the book clubs. Right now it says there are 29 people viewing the Reading Recommendations forum and I know I have seen that number a lot higher at times. I know this is a very small sample of who reads MR as a whole (1103 users active right now), but it is still 4x the number of voters for the recently closed Literary Club vote and more than the current book club vote total despite being a single snapshot during the middle of a work day rather than everyone who passes through over 5 days.

WT Sharpe · 02-04-2015, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazrin

I think your original thought has some merit. My gut feel, which I heard last year from others as well, is that part of the reason we are seeing less participation is because this is turning into the Literary Book Club "Lite". I am not bashing the Literary Club, but I don't think the main book club was intended to be that. Not that a specific purpose is really defined.

Here are the categories for 2010 (highest participation) and 2014 (lowest).

Code:

2010                             2012-2015

January:   Science Fiction Second Chance 

February:  Romance         Romance

March:     Nonfiction    Travel/Adventure

April:     Humor              Classics

May:       Classic         Mystery/Thriller

June:      Thriller/Suspense Award Winners

July:      Fantasy (trees/magic) Non-fiction

August:    Free For All         Science Fiction

September: Mystery/Crime Banned/Challenged Books

October:   Horror         Patricia Clark Memorial Library

November:  Science Fiction Foreign (originally non-English)

December:  Classic         Short Stories

If we look at what is now gone vs what we now have:

Removed (-6): Science Fiction (x1), Fantasy, Humor, Free-For-All, Horror, Classic (x1)

Combined (-1): Mystery/Crime and Thriller/Suspense into Mystery/Thriller

Added (+7): Second Chance, Travel/Adventure, Award Winners, Banned/Challenged Books, PCML, Foreign, Short Stories

Same (5): Science Fiction (x1), Non-Fiction, Romance, Classic (x1), Mystery/Thriller

We have taken out 4 months with genre categories (Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Horror and Mystery/Thriller) and added several categories that lean toward "literary books" (Award Winners, Travel/Adventure, Banned/Challenged Books, Foreign). I think the loss of Classic and addition of PCML is about a wash as well as the Second-Chance vs. Free-For-All.

Several of those removed categories were personal favorites. I think a free-for-all month in July would be the perfect balance to January's 2nd chance. There's no need, in my opinion, to restore the second month of classics. Travel/Adventure has never been one of my favorites. Banned Books is a better idea on paper than it is in reality; some of those books should have been banned for being boring. Horror and Fantasy are two more we could consider bringing back. And I see "Foreign" as unnecessary. If a book is good, it should be nominated no matter what the original language. Same for "Patricia Clark Memorial Library". We're already in the habit of using that resource as much as possible. There's no reason to limit ourselves to books that can be found there.

I'm ready for some changes in the categories.

WT Sharpe · 02-04-2015, 08:16 PM

FWIW it takes an Admin to create/move forums & sub-forums, but if people want the clubs moved back to Reading Recommendations, I could make the suggestion.

Nyssa · 02-04-2015, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazrin

I think your original thought has some merit. My gut feel, which I heard last year from others as well, is that part of the reason we are seeing less participation is because this is turning into the Literary Book Club "Lite".

[Emphasis mine]

^This + constant bickering, is why I stepped away for a year.

I've only come back, in a limited capacity (challenging myself to read one selection per quarter), because I love MobileRead as I whole, and I'd like more opportunities to connect with the friends that I've made here over the last 4 years.

Nyssa · 02-04-2015, 11:24 PM

January: Second Chance

February: Romance

March: Action/Adventure

April: Humor

May: Mystery/Thriller

June: Classic

July: Free For All

August: Fantasy

September: Nonfiction

October: Horror

November: Science Fiction

December: Annual "Catch Up" Month - No nominations, no votes. Catch up on any of the selections you missed during the year.

JSWolf · 02-05-2015, 12:16 AM

This is my list for 2016.

Jan - Published in the Previous Year (but not an Amazon exclusive)
Feb - Romance
Mar - Science Fiction
Apr - Humor
May - Nonfiction
Jun - Modern Fiction (written during or after WWII)
Jul - Free for all
Aug - Modern Classic (written during or after WWII)
Sep - Fantasy
Oct - Mystery
Nov - Thriller
Dec - Second Chance (the year's second place titles)

Even if this list is not used, please do not have any combined categories. Mystery is not thriller and science fiction is not fantasy.

Nyssa · 02-05-2015, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

This is my list for 2016.

Jan - Anything Goes
Feb - Romance
Mar - Science Fiction
Apr - Humor
May - Nonfiction
Jun - Modern Fiction (written during or after WWII)
Jul - Modern Classic (written before of after WWII)
Aug - First Book in a Series
Sep - Fantasy
Oct - Mystery
Nov - Thriller
Dec - Second Chance (the year's second place titles)

I wouldn't want a "forced" series read. We get first books in a series, regardless, for any genre.

Also how is a Modern Classic defined as "before or after WWII"? Did you mean "before or during"?

JSWolf · 02-05-2015, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyssa

[Emphasis mine]

^This + constant bickering, is why I stepped away for a year.

I've only come back, in a limited capacity (challenging myself to read one selection per quarter), because I love MobileRead as I whole, and I'd like more opportunities to connect with the friends that I've made here over the last 4 years.

The arguing seems to have mostly stopped. So you don't have to stay away because of that.

I do agree that we are getting too many really old books that are supposed to be literature but are really dull and tedious (IMHO). and it seems that they get to (mostly) be the ones chosen. The list I posted is partially an attempt to have two months where we cannot get books that are older than WWII.

02-04-2015, 11:24 PM	#27
Nyssa Series Addict Posts: 6,180 Karma: 167189477 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Florida, USA Device: Kindle Paperwhite (2nd Gen)	My Category Suggestions/ Nominations: January: Second Chance February: Romance March: Action/Adventure April: Humor May: Mystery/Thriller June: Classic July: Free For All August: Fantasy September: Nonfiction October: Horror November: Science Fiction December: Annual "Catch Up" Month - No nominations, no votes. Catch up on any of the selections you missed during the year.

02-05-2015, 12:16 AM	#28
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 76,440 Karma: 136564696 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	This is my list for 2016. Jan - Published in the Previous Year (but not an Amazon exclusive) Feb - Romance Mar - Science Fiction Apr - Humor May - Nonfiction Jun - Modern Fiction (written during or after WWII) Jul - Free for all Aug - Modern Classic (written during or after WWII) Sep - Fantasy Oct - Mystery Nov - Thriller Dec - Second Chance (the year's second place titles) Even if this list is not used, please do not have any combined categories. Mystery is not thriller and science fiction is not fantasy. Last edited by JSWolf; 02-05-2015 at 02:22 AM.

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02-04-2015, 04:56 PM	#16
WT Sharpe Bah, humbug! Posts: 39,072 Karma: 157049943 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesapeake, VA, USA Device: Kindle Oasis, iPad Pro, & a Samsung Galaxy S9.	I think during nominations, members should either be restricted to three votes OR have unlimited votes, as in the voting poll. Any limit over three it's going to be hard to keep track of, but if members are free to nominate, second, and third as many selections as they please there would be no need for anyone to keep track of anything. As to the number of books that make it into the vote, that needs be restricted only by the number of choices allowed by the software.

02-04-2015, 05:11 PM	#17
HomeInMyShoes Grand Sorcerer Posts: 19,226 Karma: 67780237 Join Date: Jul 2011 Device: none	My first thought is whatever is easiest for the person running it. Too many books in the vote makes if hard on the admin as well. The Storm Front Rule is a useful one, but hard on the admins. I've run contests on other forums and I appreciate everything the administrators of the bookclubs do. If you lived close by, I'd take you and sun_surfer out for a BEvERage.

02-04-2015, 05:52 PM	#21
HomeInMyShoes Grand Sorcerer Posts: 19,226 Karma: 67780237 Join Date: Jul 2011 Device: none	It's a good post. Thanks for refreshing the memory. Maybe we need a mission statement.

02-04-2015, 08:16 PM	#25
WT Sharpe Bah, humbug! Posts: 39,072 Karma: 157049943 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesapeake, VA, USA Device: Kindle Oasis, iPad Pro, & a Samsung Galaxy S9.	FWIW it takes an Admin to create/move forums & sub-forums, but if people want the clubs moved back to Reading Recommendations, I could make the suggestion.

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