End of the line for Sony Readers?

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

"The biggest drawback now, IMHO, is the lock-in between device and store. That's bad for consumers because choice of Reader is influenced by choice of book store. If you like the Sony but want to buy books from Amazon, you cannot. This also harms competition in the book market. Once you're locked in, you're locked in... you can't go to a different store for a better price, so there is no incentive to lower prices!"

I'm slightly puzzled by this from EatingPie.

Are you criticizing Amazon, or Sony ? Or neither, just making a statement of fact ?

Amazon is the only store Sony are ( theoretically that is ) unable to access, is that not so ?
And most Sony owners are either content with this, or accept it, 'cos they can go to all the other sources for free or paid for books. Some are even happy, in the main, with not being largely stuck with what what Amazon hve available for them.
With a Sony you can go to a different store for a better price.

If you're target is Amazon, I agree - but as I don't much care, as they don't (yet?) have a monoploy position in the supply of e-material.

'Course, if I've misread the post as it's too early and I haven'y yet had a cup of tea, I'm sorry................

Sorry about the confusion. This is obviously a thread about Sony, but I was making a criticism of the industry at large: directed at Sony, Amazon and B&N.

In terms of mainstream stores, there is a device/store lock-in for all three of the major players. Amazon cannot do ePub, and nobody else can do .mobi, so it's Amazon/Kindle if you go that route. For B&N, nobody can read their books except the Nook, so once again you're locked. Consequently, this basically forces Sony Reader buyers on to the Sony store for their books. And while the Nook can read ADE books, and thus those from the Sony store, I would be surprised if anyone with a Nook does. (I believe Apple uses yet another DRM scheme.)

Now, I'm not trying to make Sony look like a victim. I actually think this whole situation is Sony's fault! They started out with a device/store lock -- attempting to copy the iPod/iTunes model -- and as the first Reader on the market, they set the tone for things to come. Amazon followed a year or so later with the same paradigm, and immediately won the war because they were a known book store.

As you point out, there are other ADE-supporting stores out there, as well as free options like libraries and Gutenberg. But to get a brand new book, for example, you are basically locked in to a store. So what incentive does Amazon, for example, have to lower the price of an e-book? Once you have the Kindle, you are buying at Amazon. They're not competing with anyone. Same goes for B&N. And these are the two largest book sellers in the US.

I also would prefer to be free to buy whatever e-Reader I want, and use whatever bookstore I want. Freedom of choice is nice! The situation now is somewhat analogous to buying a Dell laptop and requiring a special version of Windows and Office for that Dell. You can't just go buy an HP, for example, because your Dell-version of Windows and Office won't work on it; you'd have to re-purchase all new software.

Okay, hope that clarifies things!

-Pie

[ScalyFreak]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

In terms of mainstream stores, there is a device/store lock-in for all three of the major players. Amazon cannot do ePub, and nobody else can do .mobi, so it's Amazon/Kindle if you go that route. For B&N, nobody can read their books except the Nook, so once again you're locked. Consequently, this basically forces Sony Reader buyers on to the Sony store for their books.

Not 100% true, actually... I have multiple Kobo books on my 950, since Kobo's software/store works seamlessly with Sony readers. According to a Kobo employee posting in the MR Kobo forum, their store syncs with several other devices as well, though of course not the Kindle.

I also have multiple ebooks from independent sources and stores, since Sony readers can do ePub formats without any effort on their part and the vast majority of independent publishers that I've found seem to use that format.

So a more accurate description would be that these devices all default to their own exclusive stores. The reason I wanted a Sony reader is because it seemed to be better at handling books from alternative sources than either the Nook or the Kindle is.

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by ScalyFreak

Not 100% true, actually... I have multiple Kobo books on my 950, since Kobo's software/store works seamlessly with Sony readers. According to a Kobo employee posting in the MR Kobo forum, their store syncs with several other devices as well, though of course not the Kindle.

I also have multiple ebooks from independent sources and stores, since Sony readers can do ePub formats without any effort on their part and the vast majority of independent publishers that I've found seem to use that format.

So a more accurate description would be that these devices all default to their own exclusive stores. The reason I wanted a Sony reader is because it seemed to be better at handling books from alternative sources than either the Nook or the Kindle is.

Indeed I simplified. But things are still in an anti-competitive mode.

Can you read a B&N or Amazon e-book on the Kobo? Nope. So in that sense, the Kobo is like the Sony Reader... exactly like it in what stores you can use due to ADE.

In the vein of simplification, let me continue: the two largest booksellers in the US are not competing with each other in terms of e-book sales. Once you're in, you're stuck. So there is no reason for them to lower prices. And, ultimately, what reason is there for Sony or other bookstores to lower prices either? When the de-facto best selling e-Reader is totally locked in to Amazon, and nobody else can sell for it, that lowers the incentive even further.

ADE support is certainly a move in the right direction. As you are pointing out, that helps break the device/content lock. But when this doesn't apply Amazon and B&N (or Apple), we still have a long way to go!

-Pie

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by Leyor

I think you're taking the comment a little too serious, it was my attempt to be a little humorous and lighten the mood since we're in complete disagrement about the core subject.

Oh, okay! It wasn't funny, but I get it now! (Kidding!)

I do not believe that you are a paid Sony employee, although I'd welcome that level of commitment from Sony and I don't think you habour any ill intentions just because we're in disagreement.

No I don't, neither do I believe you harbor ill intentions either.

I do think you're guilty of a bit of an apologism though. I think the bulk of posts in this forum indicates that Sony is giving up a big of the market that they previously held. If this is in anticipation of a new strategy I do not know and can only speculate about. But their readers and their accessories ARE less available than they were 6 months ago.

"Apology" means to explain. I certainly hope that's what I'm guilty of, since many claims made in this thread were not based on any substantiated data!

In terms of the Readers being less available, that is true in terms of a few retailers, but does not support the implied conclusion of discontinued product.

Two US retailers have verified not selling readers any longer -- Best Buy and B&H. But there are still a variety of other sellers still selling the devices, including Amazon Marketplace, Sears and Target -- the last of which stopped selling in-store over a year ago to make room for the Kindle. I find it significant that they still sell the Sony online.

I also think you're guilty of using a logical fallacy consisting of exceptions to argue your point rather than arguing the assertions themselves.

Not at all. And if we wanted to address fallacy, how about that nobody actually checked what was available, and where, until my post citing readers found in several stores!

Examples are:

Claim: There's less accessories available than before, even on Sony's website.
Counterclaim: There's not, and even if there's less than 6 months ago, it's only for specific models, and these specific models stopped being available 6 months ago anyways.

You missed the point: "Claim" was not true!

I was not arguing an exception I was arguing that the claim was provably false, the exact wording I used in previous posts.

Also, you incorrectly cite me. I never said "specific models [plural] stopped being available 6 months ago." I said, "specific model" singular. The PRS-650 Black. Not the red, mind you, but the black. So lack of availability was limited to one color of one model.

So once again, citations were wrong, and the facts do not support the conclusion. I mean, to conclude a whole line is being discontinued due to a single color/model combination? I'm not there.

Same goes for the PRS-950 cover.

The fact that there's still some accessories remaining, doesn't change that Sony has less products available than before.

What does this mean? Less total product available? Again, I do not agree with this assertion, but neither of us has numbers from Sony!

Claim: Sony is disinvesting themselves of their retailers, posts on this forum indiciate it is so. VHS in the UK, Target, Borders and Best Buy in the US.
Counterclaim: One of Sony's models the 350 is still widely available.

First and foremost, the claim was that no readers were widely available. None. The whole line, gone! This was completely untrue, and even citing one model -- the one Sony believes to be their strong point (it's the only one of its kind) -- invalidates the claim.

Now, in your list, only two retailers count: VHS and BB.

Target still sells Readers. Borders filed for bankruptcy. That is a sign of a failed retailer not a sign of Sony divesting from the market.

Again, I am not arguing exceptions. I am arguing against incorrect citation and invalid use of information.

Same as before.

Indeed. I am correcting factual errors. Same as before!

This is really the trend of argumentation. None of us are Sony market specialists, so everything here is purely speculative.

Agreed. However, arguments based on false data to start with are suspect in the utmost! There were repeated claims of Readers not being available on the Sony store, when in reality it was limited to one color of one model! When you conclude the Readers are being discontinued on errant citations, your conclusion is invalidated.

Having less product less widely available, not meeting demand, is not encouraging for the majority of us. It's not a common indication of success to withdraw your product and not meeting demand. We all hope that Sony is successfull since we enjoy their readers and look forward to new models, but we disagree on their success.

We don't disagree on the success, we disagree on the basic assertion, or I guess the degree of the assertion.

And in terms of success, Sony is hiring an engineer for the Reader division (based in the US). If you are discontinuing a product, you fire people. And in this still-poor economy, even a single job is a good thing. So even this single fact (which was, again, dismissed) contradicts the notion of Sony discontinuing their Readers.

-Pie

[elcreative]

Well, for anyone in the UK, Waterstones, High Street, Birmingham has a bunch of Pink and Silver PRS-350s in stock right now... don't know how long they'll last but they are available now.

[carpetmojo]

In theory, as of 8-10 days ago, you could get a 350 from W'stones by ordering from your local /any store, and it would be there in 5 days FOC.
Mine took 3 days.
£111.
Could get cheaper, 'till they run out, I presume ?

[elcreative]

Should point out, with all this thread's doom and gloom... these units in Waterstones, Birmingham are NEW stock, just in this week.

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

In theory, as of 8-10 days ago, you could get a 350 from W'stones by ordering from your local /any store, and it would be there in 5 days FOC.
Mine took 3 days.
£111.
Could get cheaper, 'till they run out, I presume ?

[carpetmojo]

As are the ones you can order - I dont think any refurb's are sold are they ? Well, not in stores like Waterstones anyway.

(If Birmingham W/stones are asking more than £111, incidentally, something very strange is going on, 'cos £111 is their quoted price on notices here .)

[jackastor]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

Basically you say Sony is getting out of the US market, blow off all factual information, and then do not back up your claim with anything. Really?

Let me just address one thing: stock.

Sony, for example, lists stock accurately. If it's in stock, it's in stock. To say "just because it's in stock doesn't mean it's in stock" is wrong. Especially with modern inventory tracking. And I have never ever had an item from BB say "in stock" and be out of stock (that's why they have an "out of stock" indicator!). But you claim if it says in stock, it's not? You realize all five places I cited would then have to be wrong on stock indication? And this is how you support your claim that Sony is leaving the US market?

I am, honestly, surprised that nobody seems concerned with the actual market, and are happy to make predictions without any evidence. I mean, even something as easily verifiable as availability is just tossed to the wind. Why is this?

-Pie

I think honestly the best reason anyone buys an Ereader these days is based on price point. IF the unit is typically 100 dollars or more less then sony ereaders I think most will buy non sony for that reason and that reason alone. That said.. who knows my opionion is just that... my opinion.

regards

jack

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by jackastor

I think honestly the best reason anyone buys an Ereader these days is based on price point. IF the unit is typically 100 dollars or more less then sony ereaders I think most will buy non sony for that reason and that reason alone. That said.. who knows my opionion is just that... my opinion.

regards

jack

I agree that price is a huge factor, though it's obviously not the only factor (otherwise nobody would buy them!). I've stated a few times in this thread that I also believe price is the primary issue and Sony should go lower.

I hadn't thought of this, but maybe price is the reason that most retailers carry the PRS-350. It's the least expensive of the bunch!

-Pie

[elcreative]

I meant new stock as opposed to stock transferred in from another shop... the refurbs were ONLY available from the web site... and were earlier versions than the x50s... and why would they be charging more than the current price???

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

As are the ones you can order - I dont think any refurb's are sold are they ? Well, not in stores like Waterstones anyway.

(If Birmingham W/stones are asking more than £111, incidentally, something very strange is going on, 'cos £111 is their quoted price on notices here .)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

In theory, as of 8-10 days ago, you could get a 350 from W'stones by ordering from your local /any store, and it would be there in 5 days FOC.
Mine took 3 days.
£111.
Could get cheaper, 'till they run out, I presume ?

Not a coincidence, I suspect, that it's the same price as the Kindle. It's certainly come down; when I bought my 350 I think it was £129.

[Rizla]

Red 650 is no longer for sale on Sonystyle.com. It says "No longer available for purchase at Sony Store." The black is out of stock. Interesting...

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by Rizla

Red 650 is no longer for sale on Sonystyle.com. It says "No longer available for purchase at Sony Store." The black is out of stock. Interesting...

Don't read too much in to that. It has said the exact same thing before for the PRS-650, and others, and they've come back stock afterward.

December 12, 2010 (PRS-650)
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...4&postcount=10

April 2011 (PRS-350)
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=127981

Both models were back in stock after these messages appeared.

Also notice that the first -- from 2010 -- is another "discontinued!" thread.

-Pie

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

Don't read too much in to that. It has said the exact same thing before for the PRS-650, and others, and they've come back stock afterward.

AFAIK the red 650 (unlike the black 650) has always been available on the US Sony site. Until now...