So I bought a blacklisted Kindle off Craigslist

[duckeedoug]

Obviously the original poster saw a great deal and thought that he was saving at a minimum $20. If the OP thought that it was worth saving $20 for what a appeared to be a good deal, then perhaps he was not willing or could not spend the extra $20 for the WiFi only unit. Times are tough and if I was in the shoes of the OP I would not want to give the unit up since it is obviously this persons hard earned dollars. I don't know what I would do in end, but it would be a tough decision, and the OP will have to figure out their own moral dilemma without being ridiculed by anyone in the forum. It is their choice alone. The OP merily sought the advice of the members of this forum and not to be scorned for whatever decision they will make.

[Pushka]

I emailed Amazon about a dodgy ebay sale, for $50 for a brand new kindle. They emailed me back saying they had no control on what people sold their kindles for.

[bitschnau]

Originally Posted by PharaohsVizier

Legally perhaps, but ethically, perhaps not.

"Perhaps not" my a**!

There is no ethical doubt the device still belongs to the buyer, not matter what the intentions of the OP were.

There is no moral dilemma in here, the OP is just unwilling to face the fact, he lost one more time in the game of life and is experiencing a misfortune here.

S*** happens, but the only right thing to do is to return the Kindle to the legitimate owner with the help of Amazon CS and than handle the own fraud and contact the police to press charges against the fence.

In my eyes, the moral bias of some people here is really disturbed. Moral is no question of worth. It's a question of inner peace and self confidence!

BUT the preceding statements ALL asume, the device is stolen or lost and there is a legitimite owner. If, with the help of Amazon CS, it is not possible to return the device, and it seems to me like the CS is not very interested in having it returned and if so, then even in my opinion it's the best thing to and morally ok to just keep it. But I would still try to clear the situation with the seller, since I don't want - if in fact it turns out he is one - such retards getting away with their selfish behaviour on my f***ing planet!

Just my 50$!

PS: Yes, I know, my moral requirements are pretty tight, people always tell me not to be such an idiot and take more advantages, if there is ostensibly no victim, but that's just how my mother raised me.

[charonme]

First let me repeat that we cannot be sure it was stolen. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. We only know that the OP 1.) claims that amazon 2.) claims it was 3.) reported as lost/stolen. To assert it was stolen you would have to unwarrantably assume those 3 emphasized claims/reports to be true.

But this is what I find suspicious - the OP claimed that Amazon responded with this:

Unfortunately, the device you've contacted us about, serial number B008xxx0, has been reported as lost or stolen. As a result, we will not permit new registrations of this Kindle.

If you have concerns about your purchase of this Kindle, please contact the seller or your local law enforcement agency.

But Amazon claims on their web:

If your Kindle is found and we're contacted, we'll arrange for it to be returned to you.

So Amazon allegedly was contacted (by the OP), but they allegedly didn't arrange for it to be returned.
Possible explanations:
- Amazon lies about their policy
- or about the device being really reported as lost or stolen
- or they don't know who reported it (see my theory 3.)
- or they compensated the one who reported it and don't care anymore (see theory 2.)
- OP lies about the Amazon response (sorry, nothing personal, just listing the possibilities)

My theories:
1) The craigslist seller legally got his kindle, but reported is as lost or stolen, was given some compensation and sold it unopened to the OP for further profit.

2) The one who reported it might have been compensated by amazon or the shipping company and Amazon doesn't care anymore, because any further action on their part would cost them more than they could gain from the used device being returned to them.

3) The device somehow got blacklisted by accident and the craigslist seller doesn't even know about it (consequently amazon has no record about the "reporter", because there is none)

4) Amazon sometimes blacklists a device for other reasons than it being reported as lost/stolen

Finally for everyone who judges the OP and claims he has some moral obligations: perhaps YOU have a moral obligation to do something (maybe hire a private detective to find out who lost the device or report the OP to cops) because now that you "know" that someone did something allegedly "illegal", doing nothing would make you an accomplice You "know" someone is missing a kindle and you "know" where the kindle is and won't tell them!

[wvcherrybomb]

Wow, I really feel bad for the OP. He just asked a question and has been called stupid, a thief, scum, and even dangerous.

I agree that $20 hardly seems worth it to buy from Craigslist, BUT... Kindle 3 was not available back in early September. My daughter had to wait almost 6 weeks for delivery of hers during that time. Perhaps the long wait was as much of a factor in his decision as the $20.

In any event, I don't believe he had any idea this was a less than legit Kindle. He contacted Amazon and tried to register it to himself. Amazon wouldn't even commit to LOST or STOLEN, let alone how to return it to the rightful owner. How can you return something when you don't even know who it belongs to?

[mmbutter]

Originally Posted by J. Strnad

No one has any moral responsibility to make the OP financially whole again.

The guy who sold him the stolen Kindle has that moral obligation; however, he's not likely to do it. If he's caught, the legal system might force him to do so.

[mmbutter]

Originally Posted by tompe

Otherwise you should not that other countries have implemented things differently. One way ti implement the laws is that if you buy something and had no reason to suspect it was stolen (good faith) then you own it even if it was stolen. So there are no was you can say that one way is the morally correct one.

So, in Sweden a thief can not be arrested if all he does is claim that he bought the stolen items and "had no reason to suspect it was stolen"? He gets away scott free and is even allowed to keep the stolen items?

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by mmbutter

So, in Sweden a thief can not be arrested if all he does is claim that he bought the stolen items and "had no reason to suspect it was stolen"? He gets away scott free and is even allowed to keep the stolen items?

In all countries I know the only stolen goods you can legally take possession of (if you acquire them in good faith) is cash. That means if someone steals money and then buys something from you the money is still yours. Everything else still belongs to the original owner and he/she has a claim against the person who has the item. Even if the item has been sold and resold several times.

[Jonas777]

Originally Posted by mmbutter

So, in Sweden a thief can not be arrested if all he does is claim that he bought the stolen items and "had no reason to suspect it was stolen"? He gets away scott free and is even allowed to keep the stolen items?

Up until 2003 that defence were possible in Sweden, yes. However the judge would also consider if the argument were plausible or not. If the judge decides that the story is false and the defendant is actually the thief (s)he would not get away with it and the gods would be returned to the original owner.

But if the goods were bought second hand and the current user could for example show a receipt from the thief the current user would keep the goods.

[Novo]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

So you realize you have a "lost/stolen" kindle and you are willing to keep it?

yeah why not? He bought it and didn't know it was stolen before.
So it's his right to keep it.
The seller is the fucker here.

But lol for 120$ you get a complete new one from amazon
I paid 99$ for a K4T directly from amazon (shipped to germany)

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Novo

yeah why not? He bought it and didn't know it was stolen before.
So it's his right to keep it.
The seller is the fucker here.
)

In Germany you could got to jail for that (knowingly keeping a stolen item, even if you bought it) --- and I assume in the US, too. He should return it and try to get his money back from the seller, that is the legal way to do it.

How could society function if keeping stolen goods is ok after you know that is what you purchased? He should do the right thing and help to put the thief/seller in jail.

And seriously, if a deal sounds too good to be true it usually is. If someone sells an item way below value, that should make anyone suspicious.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

In Germany you could got to jail for that (knowingly keeping a stolen item, even if you bought it) --- and I assume in the US, too. He should return it and try to get his money back from the seller, that is the legal way to do it.

How could society function if keeping stolen goods is ok after you know that is what you purchased? He should do the right thing and help to put the thief/seller in jail.

And seriously, if a deal sounds too good to be true it usually is. If someone sells an item way below value, that should make anyone suspicious.

Here in the U.S. if someone knowingly receives stolen goods they are in some trouble I believe. I go with the old maxim "let the buyer beware" when I see something that sounds too good to be true. I mean if something is being offered for sale at well below the normal price for that item you either have to figure it's either stolen or someone is offering a knock off that isn't what has been advertised. It's just common sense to be wary.

[dougmwpsu]

Ya'll realize that this thread is over a year old right? Bored much mmbutter?

[PharaohsVizier]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

In Germany you could got to jail for that (knowingly keeping a stolen item, even if you bought it) --- and I assume in the US, too. He should return it and try to get his money back from the seller, that is the legal way to do it.

How could society function if keeping stolen goods is ok after you know that is what you purchased? He should do the right thing and help to put the thief/seller in jail.

And seriously, if a deal sounds too good to be true it usually is. If someone sells an item way below value, that should make anyone suspicious.

How is the deal too good to be true? It was slightly below regular price which is what I'd sell a second hand Kindle for. As far as he can tell it wasn't stolen and it really doesn't seem like a fishy deal. He's already done what he can, he tried to contact the seller and even talked to Amazon, I really don't know what you expect, he shouldn't incur extra cost just because he got scammed.

And all of you throwing these laws around, I really have a hard time believing that Germans would throw this guy in jail for what he did. I'm GUESSING how the law works is that he has to KNOW it was stolen BEFORE he buys it and still buys it, which wasn't what happened here.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by PharaohsVizier

And all of you throwing these laws around, I really have a hard time believing that Germans would throw this guy in jail for what he did. I'm GUESSING how the law works is that he has to KNOW it was stolen BEFORE he buys it and still buys it, which wasn't what happened here.

He has to act as soon as he finds out it was stolen, that is the law. If he didn't know it was a stolen item when he bought the Kindle then he has not committed a crime buying it. But if he keeps a stolen item even AFTER he finds out about it, then it is criminal act. It is no crime as long as he doesn't have a clue, only. You have to report a crime, and you cannot have legal possession of stolen goods.

He wouldn't go to jail because of the low value of the item. But he would have a criminal record, the Kinde would be confiscated and he would be fined. And think about it, if something like that happened to you and you didn't report it -- wouldn't you be helping the thief get away? You can help find the thief because you have valuable information, and you might get your money back from him.