Will Paper books fade away?

[dmaul1114]

Paper is just more useful for certain things that what readers can currently do (or may ever do)--though a lot of that is personal preference. Readers and gadgets can be used for pretty much everything, it's just a matter of which is more comfortable and efficient for a person based on their preferences.

I'm sounding like a broken record as I've said this multiple times--but in my academic work I prefer printing out double sided copies of journal articles related to my research (and in journals I don't subscribe too). I find it much easier to flip through them, write notes in the margins, highlight things, be able to compare several side by side on my desk to look at results tables and compare them etc. etc. It's hard for me to see a gadget that I'd personally be able to do all that as quickly and easily. Tablet pc like devices come close, but I find it hard to write small and neatly on those which makes it tough to write in the margins etc. (especially with my terrible penmanship).

So I just don't see myself getting away from the practice. I like my filing cabinet of well organized articles that are marked up and flagged and can be spread across my desk etc. But I see how others are fine with some like the iRex for reading and marking up such documents. I'd never try to push paper on them, I just wish some of the e-reader advocates weren't so pushy toward those who prefer paper. I keep most permanently and the ones I don't I recycle--so I'm doing minimal environmental harm (and as I said in another thread I more than offset that by not having kids and contributing to overpopulation).

Some people are comfortable with ereaders or only reading and marking up PDFs on their pc/laptops--I have colleagues that mainly work that way. Myself and others work differently and find we work more quickly with printouts. To each their own.

Now for leisure reading, I love e-readers. Their great for reading anything that I don't need to highlight, write in the margins etc. The reading is the same and I'm saving money and not filling my house with books I'll never read again, and it's more convenient than going to the library.

E-readers are a great invention IMO, but they're just not going to replace paper for some tasks for some people, and there's nothing wrong with that. As with any technology it's up to the individual to decide how (or whether) it is useful to them. And as such there's no need for some e-reader enthusiasts to be so pushy toward people who prefer paper for some task--even on a site that caters to the most hardcore ereader nerds.

[Sonist]

I thought the thread was about paper books.

Most just read them, without annotating. As the technology improves and gets cheaper, more and more of us will move over to electronic reading.

Ditto for much of the other stuff. Most illustration, animation, design, photography, writing, research, etc., have already moved over to electronic workflow. And the change did not happen over such long period of time. Some, who did not adapt fast enough, saw their jobs disappear.

"Paper" papers and magazines seem to be the first to go, but books are next. Whether you like it or not

P.S. University faculty are not the target. Most I know are not subject to the pressures to adapt, at work in the "outside" world, and many, particularly in the non-tech-geek fields, are technologically averse (again, in my experience.) Many could barely set up a projector....

[dmaul1114]

Yeah, for books I'm generally 100% on board as I said above. Some academic books that I want to highlight and markup extensively aside.

But paper for note taking, articles I need to mark up etc. I'm just personally not very interested in giving up for readers, tablet PCs etc. But I'm glad the tech is there (or getting there) for people who are interested in making the switch.

Originally Posted by Sonist

P.S. University faculty are not the target. Most I know are not subject to the pressures to adapt, at work in the "outside" world, and many, particularly in the non-tech-geek fields, are technologically averse (again, in my experience.) Many could barely set up a projector....

True, though I am all for technology in most respects--though many of my older colleagues are more adverse (I'm only 30).

But there's no pressure to adapt really. All you need to do is whatever you need to, to get your 2+ publications a year (or whatever your departments expectations are) to get tenure and then later promotion to full professor and after that you're set.

Computers for typing and finding articles and printing them etc. was a huge help in increasing productivity and even my old collegues (including some in their 70s) have embraced that. But scrapping paper for notes and printouts of PDFs doesn't offer much of a boost. Maybe moreso in something like medicine where there are 100s or 1000s of studies on whatever disease or medicine a person is researching as then it's probably easier to have them on a reader and searchable.

But not in smaller fields like criminology. It's a busy year for me if their are 10 articles published in my particular niche. It's just as easy (and easier for me personally) to just print them, mark them up and stick them in the file cabinet.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

I think you are looking a little further into the future than I thought you were.

I don't see it in my life time or my 5 yr old granddaughters.

You're kidding.

I reiterate: We're not talking flux capacitors and hyperdrives; the technology to do all of these things is already here. An appropriate device could be designed, assembled and in the hands of our children within 2 years, easy! How long do you expect it to take before it is used in this way?

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Let them take them home to practice. What else? If that means buying every child a "smart board" of their own... there you go.

Oh, yeah, this is gonna fly. What universe are you living in?


As I said, these issues can be handled by electronic devices. Will the kids want them? Make them attractive to the kids (ask Disney or Nickelodeon for pointers), and they will cherish them. It does mean learning some new habits, and possibly customized devices for that task (small, durable, cheap for young students). But the problems are not insurmountable.

As of right now, there isn't an electronic device on the market that allows the physical control needed to properly write. Have you ever tried to teach a little one to write his letters? It takes a great deal of hand co-ordination. Writing on 'smart boards' or 'wipe off' boards isn't suitable.

Of course kids will want them. They'll also lose them, break them, forget them. How do you ensure every student, from every social strata , gets one? And then gets them replaced?

A paperless society is not in our near future.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

... But paper for note taking, articles I need to mark up etc. I'm just personally not very interested in giving up for readers, tablet PCs etc. But I'm glad the tech is there (or getting there) for people who are interested in making the switch.

In all honesty, I take notes on paper, too. But if there were an easy to use tablet, which can transcribe and organize my notes, I'd use it. And I am sure, given time, there will be such device.

Once it's cheap enough, you'll start seeing it in class, then the same students will take it to the work-place.

P.S. I should point out, that while I take notes on paper, I don't like getting hand-scribbled notes on paper from others. I generally try to have them transcribed into a document

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

A paperless society is not in our near future.

Neither is an educated one. But that hasn't stopped some of us from trying...

And no, that was not meant as a personal insult! But since I imagine it was probably taken that way anyway, I'll just apologize and go, and leave you-all to the debate. I've said my piece.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

As of right now, there isn't an electronic device on the market that allows the physical control needed to properly write. Have you ever tried to teach a little one to write his letters? It takes a great deal of hand co-ordination. Writing on 'smart boards' or 'wipe off' boards isn't suitable.

True, I find it very hard to write on tablet PCs legibly, so I imagine it would be very difficult to teach penmanship on one.

If paper every totally dies down the road, penmanship will die with it and we'll have moved on exclusively to typing on keyboards. But I don't see paper TOTALLY dying off anytime soon. It will become less prevalent as time goes on, but it won't disappear. Not in our lifetimes anyway and I couldn't care less what happens after I'm dead and gone.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Neither is an educated one. But that hasn't stopped some of us from trying...

And no, that was not meant as a personal insult! But since I imagine it was probably taken that way anyway, I'll just apologize and go, and leave you-all to the debate. I've said my piece.

That would depend on what you mean by "educated"

Our grandparents weren't "educated" (college wise) but they managed to survive the depression of the '30's, and no one could ever hope to 'recycle' like they did.

[thibaulthalpern]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

thibaulthalpern, I hear the things you're saying... and I realize it comes down to the organic experience of putting pen (or pencil) to paper, which I do not argue is a useful way to work. But you seem to be overlooking the fact that you can be equally as organic on an electronic device... that is, writing manually on its surface. The Hanvon video demonstrates this pretty well, and of course, if it allows you to write handwritten notes on top of a document, surely it can call up a "blank page" and let you write freely there. And it is not the only device that allows you to do that... such devices have actually been around for years. (Heck, my Casio Zoomer could do it in the nineties.)

That means that a device can be used "in the field," "on the run," "vertically," if desired. I've done that with lesser devices (like the Zoomer, and others) for years. That's why I don't need notepads, nor do I depend on switching from keyboards to paper to "undo a writer's block" or get fresh ideas down. About the only thing many of the existing devices are missing might be better power sources for field applications, and with the latest hand-cranked generators and solar cell rechargers, I wouldn't consider that much of an obstacle today.

(Random thought: How well did those notepads work in the driving rain? An electronic device in a clear protective cover can still be worked on... even with a touchscreen.)

I don't need to take notes in the rain (and you're dreaming up of scenarios that are very rare and abstract. I've done fieldwork numerous times and I haven't had to banish paper because of rain). There is weatherproof paper, by the way, and scientists are generally the ones who use them. For me, electronics are too delicate to be used during field situations. There are some scientists who do need to use electronics in their field situations but they are typically not in the business of studying people where people are finicky and have social protocols. Anthropologists have to deal with social situations and in many situations, being dependent on an electronic device for notetaking means needing to charge the device up, be careful with it when moving around in the field. And, depending on the culture and society you're in, having a tablet PC or laptop that you lug with you could be drawing attention to yourself in ways that you don't want. These are chances I do not want to take when out and about in the field. The tablet PC and other writing electronic devices are not good for my situation.

When electricity is finicky in the field situation, heavy reliance on electronics is a bad idea unless it can't be helped such as recording audio stuff and taking pictures. In my case, I carried with me a fieldnote book, paper, digital voice recorder (which I hardly ever used) and a digital camera (which again I hardly used). What I used most of was my brain (for keeping mental notes) and my fieldnote book and pen.

This is what I'm saying: That electronics can effectively reproduce all the advantages of paper (plus added advantages of their own); it's just a matter of thinking about what you want/need and applying the right technology; and the point is, all of those needed technological elements are not still under development, existing in science fiction only... they are here today.,

And that's where I disagree with you. Electronics cannot reproduce all the advantages of paper. For one thing, it relies on electricity. Paper doesn't. Sometimes when I run out of paper in my notebook, I grab newspapers, scratch paper etc. This was rare, but it has happened. Furthermore, sometimes I wanted an informant to write something for me and they're familiar with pen and paper but not familiar with a tablet PC or laptop. Believe me, those laptop/tablet PC electronics can draw attention in ways that one wouldn't want to. It can signal snobbish-ness (again, depending on what culture, society and people you're working with) just like driving around with a Mercedes Benz in Togo, or it can signal a desire to maintain a social hierarchy between haves and have-nots.

I've personally met many people who, like you, would not be convinced that an electronic device could replace their traditional method of doing things. Then, either at someone else's urging, or because of their own changing needs, they tried it... and found the electronic device could, in fact, do what they wanted/needed to do very effectively. My personal axiom has always been: "You get used to what you want to get used to." This axiom applies to all devices, old or new, and it comes not down to the technology's capabilities to adapt, but down to your ability to adapt yourself to them.

Perhaps you're being a little over zealous with your idea that electronics should replace all? I'm saying that yes electronics can replace many but not all. For instance, I'm not going back to using the typewriter to type up fieldnotes.

I do use the following electronic devices when doing field research but not necessarily when I'm actively in the field running around:
laptop, digital voice recorder, electronic transcription foot pedal, digital camera, extra hard drive.

So we can agree to disagree. On the other hand, you must honestly give the other side a try, or you can't know for sure that the others are wrong...

Have I not? Are you reading me as if I'm anti-electronics?

I've already mentioned that I do use a laptop to re-record my fieldnotes but not (and not a tablet PC either) when I'm running in the field socialising with informants, conversing with them, taking notes etc.

I'm not the one to say to hell with electronics.

Instead, you're the one saying banish paper. I'm saying, give me both paper and electronics.

[thibaulthalpern]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Paper is just more useful for certain things that what readers can currently do (or may ever do)--though a lot of that is personal preference. Readers and gadgets can be used for pretty much everything, it's just a matter of which is more comfortable and efficient for a person based on their preferences.

Sometimes or rather often, it's not just based on personal preference.

There are field situations where electronics are not demanded of and rather something less technological is required.

Imagine you're studying the culture and society in a Baule village in Côte d'Ivoire in West Africa. Electricity is unreliable there or in fact you may not even have electricity. There are anthropologists who trek into villages to do their fieldwork and then every week or two weeks go to a town with electricity to access various electronics devices. For instance, maybe to type up their fieldnotes in detail every week or so.

These are real situations!

I've lived and travelled in Accra, Tema, Tamale, Kumasi and they are all big cities in Ghana. I have also travelled in Yaounde and Douala, two major cities in Cameroon. I have experienced loss of electricity numerous times a month and not just a few minutes without electricity. I have gone hours and often days without electricity in these situations. The reality of those situations is that sometimes you cannot rely on electronics and have to revert to pen and paper, carrying your own bucket of water, handwashing your clothes and so forth.

My main point is this: it doesn't always boil down to personal preference. Social conditions often dictate what is and isn't appropriate, what is and isn't available.

[yeah, I'm an anthropologist]

[thibaulthalpern]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Steve. How do you reconcile this with teaching small ones to write?

I'm assuming you are thinking of little 'smart boards" (we have them at our school) for each student. Then what do they do when they go home? How do they practice their penmanship?

How do you save their progress from the beginning of the year to the end, for comparison?

desertgrandma, I think I want to extend your point. And here it is what I read into what you're saying:

there is NO REASON to wholeheartedly adopt electronics for EVERYTHING when there isn't a real reason to aside from the desire that one may want everything to be electronics.

Let's take a look a a map of light pollution. Here, you can tell immediately where in the world electricity is easily accessible and where it is a rare resource



Notice in the map above where the coast of West Africa is. See how dim parts are and how unlit other areas are? I grew up in West Africa and electricity there is still a major problem as it is in many other parts of Africa. And notice the unlit areas in large portions of the Americas, Australia and large portions of Asia.

When my then partner came to visit me while I was doing fieldwork in West Africa, he carried with him his American Express card. He thought that like in Europe, America, his Platinum AmEx card could "save" him. He has been in many situations when travelling around Europe and America where a phone call to AmEx would allow him to get the help he needed--extra money, a place to stay, travel aid, etc.

It was his first time in West Africa and using his social constructs of how life works in America, he thought the same would work for him in West Africa. Wrong. I told him, ditch your AmEx card. It's entirely useless in West Africa except for some capital cities and even then only at major international businesses, and people living in capital cities don't rely primarily on major international businesses. In their immediacy, they rely on small-scaled so-called informal sector of the economy the most.

We weren't going to the capital. We were going to other major towns and some small villages but phone lines are not easily accessible (nor is the cellular network available!!!!). Ditch the card, I persuaded him because here you don't rely on AmEx. You rely on human face-to-face interaction with people you may not know but have to depend on. Along with ditching the AmEx, I was trying to inform him how his reliance on AmEx was really also reliance on a certain electricity/electronics infrastructure that was not available.

My point? It's not always personal preference that dictates what can or cannot be used. Social and physical conditions play a role in that too.

[thibaulthalpern]

Originally Posted by Sonist

In all honesty, I take notes on paper, too. But if there were an easy to use tablet, which can transcribe and organize my notes, I'd use it. And I am sure, given time, there will be such device.

Once it's cheap enough, you'll start seeing it in class, then the same students will take it to the work-place.

P.S. I should point out, that while I take notes on paper, I don't like getting hand-scribbled notes on paper from others. I generally try to have them transcribed into a document

What I want to add to Sonist's discussion is below, but before I begin I want to make clear that what I'm going to say is a deviation from my general argument for the co-existence of paper and electronic paper/electronics in general.

One thing that we can do with pen and paper that we cannot with computer and electronic paper is the sensuality involved in using pen on paper. I'm a fountain pen enthusiast and when I'm not in the field I use my fountain pens whenever I need to use a pen. There is a sensuality (not emotional, necessarily) but a physical feel that cannot be reproduced by typing on the keyboard of using a stylus on a tablet PC.

That physical feel is analogous to the physical feel one gets when one plays the piano, violin, or any other musical instrument. Yes, you can reproduce the exact sounds of a manual piano, violin, and any other musical instrument through electronic means. But is that all there is? If so, you are only focusing on the end-product and not the process and means.

Playing the piano (the manual kind as opposed to a computer synthesizer) is not only about the sound but also the physical feel. That physical feel cannot be reproduced with a computer synthesizer. Likewise, the physical feel of of pen on paper cannot be reproduced by electronics, at least not in the same way.

P.S. When I'm in running around in the field, I DO NOT use a fountain pen which I find too delicate for those purposes. For those purposes, a ballpoint pen or rollerball pen or pencil is much better. See, I'm practical. I'm not an all or nothing. I'm a, "Let's see what is most practical" kind of person.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Heh, you mean like lawyers?

Trust me, I'd take a LexisNexis search over a day in the library any day

I would love it if more lawyers worked with digital files. Our company does business with some who won't deal with email.

I would LOVE to stop printing 10,000 pages of Bates-numbered transcripts and exhibits to be handed over to the other side of a case. (I understand that my company would not like to stop printing these things; we make a lot of money selling paper to lawyers who are baffled by PDFs.)

Also, digital files are touchy in court. Any digital file can be edited, and while (probably) all edits can be checked (or at least, a skilled geek can tell you if a file's been edited), even knowing *that* files can be edited is a specialized skill. (A lot of people think PDFs are edit-proof.) And if you've got a bunch of tifs burned to a disc, there's no way to confirm when the last edits to them were done.

I love digital archiving and strongly support better search & index capabilities, but I don't see them replacing paper entirely; I see them as a different kind of tool, with different benefits & drawbacks. Paper doesn't accidentally change if someone else looks at it & clicks the wrong buttons.

[Sonist]

O.K., paper will not disappear entirely. We still use stuff like parchment for highly specialized purposes.

But the digital age is here, and the naysayers are not the first, nor the last, to resist change.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia, to illustrate the point:

" In 1490, Johannes Trithemius preferred the older methods, because "handwriting placed on parchment will be able to endure a thousand years. But how long will printing last, which is dependent on paper? For if ...it lasts for two hundred years that is a long time.""

The printing press changed things then, tablets and e-readers are the harbingers of change today.

You guys saw that The Seattle Post-Intelligencer Shifts Entirely to the Web on Wednesday. It's just the first drop before the downpour.

I may still scribble on paper, but someone 50 years from now may well look at me as the "papyrus guy."