Solar liseuse charger (or: "Enjoyable descent into unutterable silliness.")

[Lobolover]

NatCh -I dunno,"the doom that came to sarnath" seems like anything BUT a sci fi story.

ps:should I make a general Lovecraft/Weird fiction thread?

[NatCh]

I haven't read that story, so I can only answer in general terms, so here goes.

It depends on your definition of Science Fiction. Mine is: a story which is dependent on a technology that does not exist at the time of the writing. Note that they story is not necessarily about the fictional technology, only that it requires that fictional technology in order for the story to work.

If you want to start such a thread then you should, absolutely.

[vivaldirules]

NatCh, when I read your definition what jumped to my mind (isn't it interesting how the thoughts that enter my mind quickest are where I see something inadequate with someone else's thoughts) were two of my favorite books which contain no technology at all: Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse Five" (a guy who uncontrollably time trips) and Le Guin's "The Lathe of Heaven" (a guy who uncontrollably changes reality when he dreams). Would you classify these as SciFi or something else? Myself, I'm not sure. I only know that I like these kinds of stories the best.

[NatCh]

No worries, that's how the intelligent improve their views, by bouncing them off others. "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

Ah, now we're getting into the definition of "technology!"

Time travel and reality manipulation are favorite SciFi pretenses, but they could also be some sort of magic or mystical thing, I suppose. If you want to really pick those nits it'll come down to the actual mechanism for doing those things which the author has in mind. Could he be thinking of some sort of genetic mutation that causes these things? I'd call that SciFi. How about some sort of arcane artifact that the character has in his possession but may not even know about? I'd put that one in Fantasy. When he doesn't say, then you get to decide for yourself, but most folks will say SciFi, simply because that's how those ideas have generally been grouped.

Then again, you know what they say about technology and magic: Any technology that is distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced ... or something like that.

In any case, when you try to draw arbitrary categories on anything you'll always have a few that don't really fit anywhere, and get kind of glommed on somewhere "close enough." That's why I specified that as being my definition (I got it off L. Ron Hubbard, by the way), I wasn't trying to be definitive.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

NatCh, when I read your definition what jumped to my mind (isn't it interesting how the thoughts that enter my mind quickest are where I see something inadequate with someone else's thoughts) were two of my favorite books which contain no technology at all: Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse Five" (a guy who uncontrollably time trips) and Le Guin's "The Lathe of Heaven" (a guy who uncontrollably changes reality when he dreams). Would you classify these as SciFi or something else? Myself, I'm not sure. I only know that I like these kinds of stories the best.

I think fantasy covers these kinds of stories. SF is particular that there are a set of technology advances or even assumptions (such as warp drive) that carry the story but otherwise it has to follows the laws of physics and other science disciplines. Fantasy has no such restriction.

Dale

[vivaldirules]

I think I buy all that. But just for clarification, would the two of you say that a story about a civilization (not an advanced one compared to our "civilization", such as it is) on another planet somewhere would not be SciFi but fantasy or something else, right?

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

I think I buy all that. But just for clarification, would the two of you say that a story about a civilization (not an advanced one compared to our "civilization", such as it is) on another planet somewhere would not be SciFi but fantasy or something else, right?

Hmm. That's a good one. I'll assume you don't mean a human civilization, because that would require interstellar travel at some point which would be SciFi (such as Anne McCaffrey's Pern series).

That would probably be classified as SciFi, simply because it involves "aliens" which are usually grouped that way (another case of arbitrary groups not always fitting perfectly). You could probably make a decent argument that it's simply fiction, rather than Science Fiction, but I doubt many people would find it a compelling argument.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

I think I buy all that. But just for clarification, would the two of you say that a story about a civilization (not an advanced one compared to our "civilization", such as it is) on another planet somewhere would not be SciFi but fantasy or something else, right?

Not enough data. If the world that they are about has features that do not match those of known physics but matches physics and science after a given set of assumptions you have to buy into at the beginning then it might be science fiction or with no assumptions just fiction with another subcategory. (nothing is really just fiction IMHO). Now if it is a world like Narnia, or middle earth then it is fantasy.

Does that help? Maybe we need a wiki on genres.

Dale

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Does that help? Maybe we need a wiki on genres.

Dale

especially since now we can use thread prefixes and tags to define the genres of the books we upload... i think a wiki is a good idea.

[vivaldirules]

Thanks. I didn't have something in particular in mind. Just trying to understand the logic behind the classification that people use. In the end, it's just a label and I try not to get too concerned about those. Aliens, huh? Just for fun, if we go back 500 years or more, would fictional works about civilizations in distant lands have been properly classified as scifi or fantasy using the current definition?

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

especially since now we can use thread prefixes and tags to define the genres of the books we upload... i think a wiki is a good idea.

But I don't see "Unutterable Silliness" in Alex's list.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

But I don't see "Unutterable Silliness" in Alex's list.

quick, tell him to add it !! around here, that is going to be indispensable...

[zelda_pinwheel]

and speaking of which, the conversation over here has been markedly un-silly lately. snap out of it, or i'm going to have to have a word or two.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

Just for fun, if we go back 500 years or more, would fictional works about civilizations in distant lands have been properly classified as scifi or fantasy using the current definition?

Well, back when the world was flat, obviously there were no distant lands, so it's SciFi, naturally!

Seriously, though, I'd call it just fiction, unless they were somehow depending on some not-then existent scientific device (very unlikely in the 1500's) for the story to work.

We're (mostly Alex) working on a list of categories for the rest of the forum, so I'm sure there will be some appropriate category for this thread "So far off topic that you can't see it from here" most likely.

All right, now snapping out.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by NatCh

We're (mostly Alex) working on a list of categories for the rest of the forum, so I'm sure there will be some appropriate category for this thread "So far off topic that you can't see it from here" most likely.

can we please PLEASE have that verbatim as a category ??? that would be brilliant !!!